HERE ON FIBBER ISLAND: Did you like it? Did you hate it? Did you understand it? Those of us lucky enough to live on the West Coast haven't seen it yet, but here's your thread. I'll update later.
Added: In the end, the finale was about Lost, The Story, and not Lost, The Mystery. Which is exactly what I wanted. Last year's finale gave us reenactment as portent, a warning that not all would go right with the fuzzily-reasoned plan to blow up the past with a nuclear warhead. This year's finale (and parts of the season) gave us reenactment as a way of unclogging memory, an invitation to the characters to look hard into those mirrors that kept popping up. Not to spoil -- you wouldn't be reading if you were worried about that, would you? -- but tonight's callbacks, both the explicit flashbacks (sonogram, delivery, hatch) and the more oblique references (Locke echoing Juliet's "it worked" from the beginning of the season; Jack repeating "what happened, happened" without the "you have to let go" kicker, which Christian supplied later) just felt earned.
I suppose I should expect some disappointment at an episode that definitively picked a side in the fundamental Lost debate: Man of science, or man of faith? But I don't. The rules of why the characters had to do what they did to get to the final scenes weren't important. This episode felt right as the payoff for all of their stories -- for the long con, as Sawyer might describe the show as a whole. So no, I don't care that nobody explained Walt, or that we don't know who etched the hieroglyphs into the stopper, or who the skeletons in the sub-basement were, or what happened after the scene where the thing happened and the other thing was doing that thing, or even what Juliet meant in the first episode this season when she said "it worked," because it didn't. As a person who complained about the alternative universe, even I will admit that ultimately that was the one that resonated.
And, incidentally, now that I'm spoiling, I also thought that a lot of care went into the guest list for the party (other than one omission who could be explained by another). I appreciated the distinctions that they drew.
I'll say that the preshow clip show is very good, and I hope it shows up on the DVD set.
ReplyDeleteAgreed- it's helping me by confirming what I had assumed but had nver gotten confirmed concerning the MiB- that he had to kill Jacob and the candidates to get off the island.
ReplyDeleteVINCENTVINCENTVINCENTVINCENTVINCENTVINCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteHey, nobody told me this was going to be a clipshow.
ReplyDeleteHollywood and Vines!
ReplyDeleteholycrap
ReplyDeleteI sa-aw you -- and HIM -- brawlin' in the raiiiiiiin.
ReplyDeleteSmokey does a Target ad!
ReplyDeleteThis is mind-blowingly good and fulfilling.
Yes. So far, it's almost everything I hoped for and nothing I was worried it would be.
ReplyDeleteDitto. And I've now cried three times: When Locke moved his legs, when Jack and Kate said goodbye, and when Sawyer and Juliet reunited.
ReplyDeleteThough I guess I'd be happier if the scenes were longer than the ad breaks. I haven't actually watched this many commercials for something other than sports since law school.
ReplyDelete<span> <span></span><span>I don't believe in a lot of things, but I believe in duct tape.</span></span>
ReplyDeleteI guess that explains how the finale can be syndicated, though.
ReplyDeleteI even cried for Charlie and Claire, which makes it the third time Charlie's made me cry, and I couldn't stand that guy for most of his time on the show.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteWell, I absolutely loved most of it, but I can't quite say I get it...not yet, anyway.
ReplyDeleteWow, indeed. I bet there will be many who disagree, but I absolutely loved it.
ReplyDeleteI was a mess during that ending. Good finale. I was pleased by so much. And: VINCENT!!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how I feel about it, but they certainly didn't hold back.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to look back on how one show evolved from survival drama to action-adventure story to sci-fi to high fantasy to what we just saw in only six seasons.
I think the ending (so far as I can understand it) reinforced two key themes of the show:
ReplyDelete1. No one is beyond redemption and that everyone has a purpose, even if they don't realize it.
2. We want and need other people to connect and to be with one another.
(Also, judging from early comments at EW, seems like it's being heavily misunderstood--a lot of folks reading it as the old "They All Died In The Crash, The Island Is Purgatory" game, but I don't think that's what happened.)
I was all there until the last ten minutes, and that I'm not quite sure about yet.
ReplyDelete"Live Together, Die Together."
ReplyDeleteI liked it. I need to digest, but I feel satisfied, much moreso than I could have hoped for.
ReplyDeleteI agree on your two themes. I understood the ending as the Sideways world was purgatory (which explains how beatific everyone was once they "remembered"), and the Island was the Island.
ReplyDeleteI loved it because it almost perfectly intertwined character and plot. The six seasons on the Island were, in the end, meaningful, not because of the timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly or the mysticism, but because of the mark that the personal connections made on each person, such that when they realized that their time alive was over, they could not be happier than to be with those they were with on the Island. It was like the best end-of-summer-camp-highlight reel ever.
I didn't lose it until Vincent ran over and laid by Jack- believe it or not that's what did it for me.
ReplyDeleteIt was some sort of reverse My Dog Skip/Marley and Me
Yeah, I'm still puzzling that out.
ReplyDeleteStill working it out, but I loved what I did get. Matt, I agree that the "island was purgatory all along" people are missing it. It seems to me that the sideways world was purgatory (sort of), in that it allowed the island people to work out their issues before death - Jack's father issues, Kate helping Claire to have her baby, Sun and Jin loving each other, Sawyer being one of the good guys, Locke learning to let go of his guilt and victimhood.... I was very moved that Ben could not yet go into the church, having so much more to work out.
ReplyDeleteI feel really glad that it ended up being about the characters and their relationships to each other more than about the mysteries. There's a lot I still don't feel like I know - WHY was it important to save the island, even after Smokey was dead, for example? But for now, I'm satisfied.
Wow is right. It'll take me a while to fully get through it (plus rewatch the entire series knowing what we know now), but I had wondered how they could take the last six seasons and make it a show about characters/relationships AND have a satisfying ending. That's how.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteTotally with you on how this is being misinterpreted. I'm still processing how the sideways is to be interpreted, though. But that last shot before the LOST end-title card -- absolute perfection.
ReplyDeleteThey had me til 11:20.
ReplyDeleteI feel semi-satisfied. The birth scene pulled me out of it some, and I didn't like the pairing off of Kate and Jack being shoved down my throat. But I guess what happened happened (on the Island) and the Sideways universe was a gentle Purgatory where everyone got to work out their Karma before moving on.
ReplyDeleteI still wish we'd gotten some answer about Walt, though.
Loved the Target ads.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm kind of amazed that they actually had the guts to take the old "Island is Purgatory" theme and make that the Sideways universe. But as to whether I liked spending all that time this season there...I'm not sure how I feel about that.
ReplyDeleteThe on-island stuff, however, was excellent. Even though I figured out what was coming when Miles & Richard ran into the debris, I was still cheering & applauding when I saw Frank alive.
And kudos to whoever said "uh-oh" when Hurley was thankful he didn't get the job last week.
I don't think I've said it here, but I've definitely been telling people that I thought Hurley's line last week suggested that he'd be forced to take Jack's place. Probably the only thing I've guessed correctly this entire season!
ReplyDeleteI think my brain is working on a sort of regular life/island life/sideways life as steps along the path to enlightenment thing? I mean I suppose the aggresively multi-denominational church window implies that there isn't one religious philosophy that it's supposed to be, so maybe purgatory is just as descriptive a way to put it, but...yeah.
ReplyDeleteI guessed the final image of the series. I knew it had to be Jack's eye closing.
ReplyDeleteSo so so glad to see Lapidus pop up there, and glad that he again got to save the day.
ReplyDeleteI think Sideways-as-Purgatory is most clearly confirmed by the exchange between Hurley and Linus at the end -- "You were a great #2" / "You were a great #1". At some point after assuming these roles, they died, and this is where they ended up, with Linus still having more atoning to do before he's ready to move on.
ReplyDeleteHere's something that's bothering me (and I'm sure I'll come up with way more later) -
ReplyDeleteWhen MIB was pushed into the Cave of Light, he turned into the smoke monster. But Desmond was fine (well, he's special) and Jack was as well. Huh? I guess I'm just supposed to accept that this cave is the source of the island's power, and that pulling out the big ol' cork is a bad thing, but this is a sticking point for me.
Well-put, Adam.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I agree that the Jack/Kate pairing felt a little forced--I think I would have bought it much more if it were framed as a friendship thing rather than a romance thing, as those two have the least sexual chemistry of any combination of any two people on this show--but I did really like that original timeline Kate basically chose Claire.
ReplyDeleteRight. This is why we know that they didn't die in the crash -- the Island life was real and continued after Jack's (Island) death.
ReplyDeleteYeah. When Jack woke up on the rocks, I was like...is he the smoke monster now? That would suck. Hurley vs. Smokey Jack? But I don't think that was the implication.
ReplyDeletePerhaps like the tree in "Empire" what's in the cave is only what you take with you. MIB was dark and cynical, and believed people were basically evil. Desmond and Jack just wanted to help.
ReplyDeleteKimmel and Fox just basically confirmed the consensus reading above.
ReplyDeleteYup. I was starting to get upset that Jack was going to die by himself, but then Vincent came to him and lay down beside him. You're never alone if you have a dog, you know.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalt! wasn't the one who was special. Maybe it was Vincent who was special, and the others just thought that Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalt! could control him.
I agree. Sideways world turned out to be purgatory, but the Island was part of real life.
ReplyDeleteThat was my answer, as well. The Island knew that Jack was in there to help, so he was not Smoke-Monsterized.
ReplyDeleteSays the boyfriend: "See, that's always a valid answer with this show. 'Because the Island wanted it that way.'"
I *think* I'm really happy with it, but I need more time to process.
ReplyDeleteMore from me: With all the reunions this episode, did anyone else find it weird that there was no big Penny/Desmond moment?
ReplyDeleteIt's not like they could top the previous Penny/Desmond moments, though.
ReplyDeleteI found the whole sideways timeline unsatisfying -- I'm still not sure what the purpose for it (aside from being a way to bring back actors/characters who died in previous seasons) or why it was necessary. But Vincent was the hero of the episode for me -- him waking up Desmond with Rose & Bernard (yay!) and then staying with Jack at the end. (And the final scene, so obviously perfect and elegant of a way to bring the show full circle.)
ReplyDeleteAre Damon & Carlton Bokonists? Everyone in the church at the end was Jack's karass? (Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle for reference)
Last thought of the night for me:
ReplyDeleteI think I'm realizing that while I really liked the finale, I don't like a lot of season 6 in retrospect. A lot of it now looks like useless filler: the temple and those characters, Sayid's "infection," Widmore and his crew, the need to bring Desmond back to the island. To bring the finale to this place, I feel like we didn't need most of that - bringing Widmore back was tying up loose ends I guess, but the rest seems meaningless.
So Darlton has plausible deniability when they say they knew how the series would end. The eye would close. Cute. Beyond that, how much of this sideways stuff did they have in mind? And what about all the time we spent worrying about the nature of the island itself? Never mind?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to sleep on it, but I'm grumpy.
I approve of this comment, if only for the Vincent love and the Cat's Cradle references. I love that book. All you needed was an ice-9 reference and I would have been even more pleased.
ReplyDeleteI liked all of it up until Patrick Duffy pulled back the shower curtain and said "Hello Jack".
ReplyDeleteIt was a wonderful season premiere episode. Probably the best since the pilot. Really set up the characters to explain all the things we had been told were important. I can't wait to see how they unravel the mysteries....
I'm grumpy too.
Anyone read "His Dark Materials," back in the day? Anyone else think Pullman's idea of purgatory was more beautiful, well-thought, and inspiring? Can't help but think, though I love the show, that I've seen (or read) a better version of what they were attempting.
ReplyDeletei really liked it...and i haven't liked season 6 very much at all.
ReplyDeleteMe, too. I've had that guess for a long time. :)
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree, Sue. I felt very "open" (for lack of a better word) for what the writers and actors would give to me in the final season and finale. I had the pleasure of watching almost all of Season 6 this past Monday-Wednesday. I feel when seen more fluidly (back-to-back), it seems less jagged, inconsistent, useless filler, etc. I really believe it all serves a purpose to their greater message. I also felt, when I saw them so close together that things that felt long and drawn out or felt far too long before we saw "x" person again didn't feel that way at all. This is only my two cents though. :)
ReplyDeleteI loved the finale. I thought it was absolutely beautiful. I thought, once again, there was amazing symmetry and parallels and parity from other seasons. I enjoyed the humor and few meta references they gave as they always did throughout the series. I was incredibly moved; I feel very grateful for the gift of the show. I do feel quite emotionally spent though.
ReplyDeleteThank you for being a place for all of us to come and talk, share, vent, and question. It's been a joy. :)
I think I fall in between on how I feel about it as a finale. I loved all of the things people mention here; the reunions, Vincent, etc. & cried more than once. But I also feel somewhat unsatisfied, though I can't put my finger exactly on why, nor can I say how it could have ended that WOULD have made me happier with it. I have several of the same issues Alan talks about in his post, so I won't rewrite what he's already said better than I could anyhow. I think maybe the biggest problem for me was the Desmond thing....why was he a constant, so special, etc. but then had less of a role (or maybe less of a role than I was hoping for) in how things ultimately ended up. I also wanted a final Desmond/Penny scene, and am mad Garaday didn't get to be at the church or have a bigger role in how it all ended. But, since I'm an Alan groupie, I'll be like him & not fixate in
ReplyDeletemy disappointments and will focus on the many tremendous moments of the finale.
I think it was the perfect finale for Lost.
ReplyDeleteIt had several amazing moments. It left questions unanswered. It raised more questions it left unanswered. In that respect it was frustrating and for some it ruined everything. It progressed its characters. It made me laugh. It made me tense. It made me cry. It made me angry. It had too many obscure religious references to count. It dealt with faith. It dealt with science. It gave characters funny nicknames. It had violence. It had romance. It had redemption.
Those are the things I think of when I think of Lost, and there was no reason to think that the finale should have been different.
OK, one question before I leave for work and get asked the same thing- how are we supposed to interpret the scene of the crashed Oceanic 815 that played over the credits? Because (this isn't my opinion) it can be totally misconstrued to mean oh look, here's the original crash, no survivors, it was all a dream. I fully believe that the show ended when Jack's eye closed, but I know others might not see it that way.
ReplyDeleteAfter "sleeping" on it (aka tossing and turning with my mind racing almost the whole night), I am still satisfied, I feel a little shell-shocked, and I am happy for the journey to be over. Something that I really like about the ending- I think it sewed the storyline up enough for so many of the characters that there's no way, in my mind, that they can do a follow-up movie or series. It all ended last night. Maybe things were left unanswered, but there's not a huge chance that they're going to bring them all back from the dead to answer those lingering questions.
Loved 95 % of it. After sleeping on it, I can say that I enjoyed the serires, but I am done with it. The island itself was never finally explained: time travel! Immortals! Surviving a fracking H-Bomb blast!
ReplyDeleteSideways was NOT really "sideways" in the sense that it wasn't an alternate reality- they could have found enlightenment and be ready to move on at any point. What was the point of re-flying 815 without a crash? And the island is at the bottom of the Pacific in purgatory? Really?
Loved the characters, and the show was a ripping yarn; but the sideways as purgatory leaves me flat.
I'm wondering similar things about the Sideways world. Did Jughead have anything at all to do with it? Presumably these people are not the only ones who get the purgatory treatment we've seen in the Sideways world, right? So doesn't it really seem as though "what happened happened," and Jughead didn't change that, but was just a clever ploy by the writers to leave us in the dark about what was going on in the alt-verse?
ReplyDeleteI like the concept that was brought up in the initial TV Club post about this: Jughead opened the door to the Sideways World. Desmond and Juliette while on the Island got a glimpse into that world.
ReplyDeleteWhile I was initially going with the concept that the Sideways World was purgatory, I don't think so---at least not in the the Catholic sense of the word. It's not a place where people go to burn off sin, so to speak. Rather, it was like an elaborate waiting room, where people who shared this joint experience went to wake up so that they could go and "live together" for the rest of time, even if they "died alone" (or separately) in the real world. That's why Locke, when he'd clued into the situation and Jack had not, told Jack that he didn't have a son. The Sideways World was not real in the sense that the non-815'ers there were really there.
And now Ben is the only person in the Sideways World who is clued into the fact that it is not real but is still there.
Daniel knows, too, doesn't he?
ReplyDeleteI just took that as a curtain call for The Island, and a bit of appreciation for the incredible set/location, maybe even as a representative of thanks to all the technical crew.
ReplyDeleteI'm playing with the idea of the final Sideways scenes (and not the entire universe/everything we'd seen up to that point) being just Jack's final moments, that those people in the church weren't "real" souls but just Jack's projections- that this was his final moment as Jack, the guy who has to fix everyone, and he finally got to.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Daniel knows yet. He didn't know Charlotte when he saw her---more of a sense of deja vu.
ReplyDeleteI think there's room for a lot (though not all) of the characters to have further stories--for instance, it's suggested that Kate, Miles, Sawyer, Lapidus, Richard, and Claire get back to the non-Island world and live long post-Island lives, and that Rose, Bernard, Hurley, and Ben live long lives on the Island. (And Ben remains in Sideways land.) Yes, we know that it ends for all of them in death, but there are still stories to be told.
ReplyDeleteI'm not so sure -- wasn't Daniel the one (via a chat at Widmore's house, after Eloise warned Desmond off) who clued Desmond into what he needed to do in the Sideways world?
ReplyDeleteFollowing my own comment to respond to the anticipated question "Then why wasn't Daniel at the church?":
ReplyDeleteBecause Eloise asked Desmond at The Concert if she would have to give up her son, and he said something to the effect of "not now." My interpretation of that moment is that Eloise wanted more time in the Sideways world before letting go and losing Daniel again (similar to Ben vis-a-vis Alex).
Scroll down to Act 6 of Happily Ever After. ("Just listen, what if, this, all this, what if this wasn't suppose to be our life? What if we had some other life and for some reason, we changed things? I don't want to set off a nuclear bomb, Mr. Hume. I think I already did.")
ReplyDeleteDisagree on bringing Desmond back. Desmond really was the key to this whole thing, though not for any of the reasons we thought he might be. His ability to withstand the electromagnetism made him the only person who could pull out the bathtub stopper, which renders Smocke mortal so Jack can kill him. Whether that was Widmore's plan, or whether Widmore's plan was to destroy the island (or whether he had a plan at all) we'll never know. But Desmond had to be there.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, Ben turns out to be the island's best protector after all, and the driving force behind the Oceanic passengers being the ones to end the crazy on the island. If Ben hadn't killed Jacob, then all the Oceanic candidates simply would have died there like every other candidate before, and another group would have to start all over again. Because Ben kills Jacob, one of the Oceanic candidates has to take over. And because of who is chosen, and because Desmond is there at the right time, Jack is able to kill Smocke and put the stopper back in again. Interesting.
And why show us the island at the bottom of the ocean in the sideways world? If the island is destroyed, bad things happen, right? And Juliet is wrong that "it worked." None of that makes any sense at all.
ReplyDelete<span>Thanks, Adam -- I'll want to rewatch the Daniel/Charlotte interaction from last night, but I lean toward reading that HAA scene and last night's D/C scene together as saying that Daniel experienced some aspect of Sideways enlightenment before his chat with Desmond, but Charlotte had yet to have her complementary moment.</span>
ReplyDeleteI certainly enjoyed it, and it's a fitting end for the characters. But it wasn't a fitting end for the show. Darlton can say all they like that they were telling a character story, but they weren't JUST doing that. They told a mystery story and a sci fi story, and no story that introduces all the massive plotlines they did with no payoff can be considered well-finished. Only some of the characters got their stories finished, anyway.
ReplyDeleteI think as a big fan of the show, I'm left feeling like much of the material in the middle of the show was somewhere between red herrings and bad planning. Ultimately, Dharma, Widmore and the Others, which were such a huge part of the first five seasons, turn out to be utterly irrelevant. The children stealing/fertility stuff can be explained merely as the Others needing to replenish their ranks to keep "protecting" the island, but nothing they did seems to have had any effect on protecting the Island at all. They found a way to keep the smoke monster away from them, but otherwise, what else did they do? They didn't bring the Oceanic candidates to the Island, they didn't help or hurt Jacob or the Man in Black that I can see.
Ben himself was the only thing that turned out to be relevant - he put in motion the events that led to Smockey dying, and he killed off Dharma which arguably was putting the island in danger with their digging and their experiments. But in the end the Dharma stuff/Jughead/all of the time travel stuff didn't have anything to do with the final plot line nor the sideways world.
I'm fine with the send off the characters got, and I enjoyed the episode a great deal, but I'm highly disappointed that so much of what we watched for so long was a meandering tangent.
"What was that?"
ReplyDelete"That was Charlie."
Marsha -- I differ with you re: Juliet's statement. We all interpreted her statement back in Ep. 1 of the season to mean that Jughead worked; what we saw last night in her (re-)meet cute with James was that she was talking about the vending machine fix.
ReplyDeleteWith that, I think we get the answer to the submerged island: Jughead didn't "sink" it -- it was metaphorically submerged in Jack's consciousness, and indeed in the consciousness of each of the Sideways characters.
On his post-show, Kimmel ran the clip of the turbulence scene from this season's premiere, where Jack clutches the armrests of his seat -- and then Rose comforts him: "You can let go now." Now, tell me all you want that Darlton are full of shit in saying that they planned all of this out, and I'll say to you that of COURSE they didn't plan everything out, you have to react and change on the fly, and some things don't go the way you wanted them to (see Eko, Nikki & Paolo); we know from their recent interviews that even Darlton don't maintain the pretense that all of this was elaborately set up from Day 1. But seeing that scene again after the finale tells me that they CLEARLY planned the key beats of THIS season out. I very much look forward to picking up the S6 DVDs and rewatching to find those beats.
"<span>I also thought that a lot of care went into the guest list for the party (other than one omission who could be explained by another)"</span>
ReplyDeleteI feel dumb asking this, but who are we referring to here?
<span>My take on Isaac's statement was that he was referring to Walt and Michael, but YMMV.</span>
ReplyDeleteIt didn't feel forced to me, mainly because all of these alt-L.A. scenes (and the clip show) reminded me that Kate and Jack had lived together in L.A. after leaving the island, and had been engaged. While Kate and Sawyer had their chemistry and their moments together, all in all, they were really not together much. But Kate and Jack had built a real relationship at one point.
ReplyDeleteProbably. Because they'd be each other's connections. Was Penny the only person there who never made it to the island?
ReplyDelete(Also, was Miles in church?)
Okay, I can see that about Desmond. What I was thinking was that if Jack could go down there and survive (it seemed to me that he died from the stab wound, not from going into the cave of light), then why did we need Desmond? But if he was the only one that could pull the stopper out, making Smokey mortal and killable, then I can see his purpose.
ReplyDeleteIt did make me a little sad when Jack turned to Hurley and asked him to take over as island protector with Ben right there, being passed over... again. But of course Jack would choose Hurley and of course Ben didn't earn it by this point. And I thought it was a really nice moment when Hurley and Ben had their "you were a great #1/#2" moment at the end.
Don't specifically recall seeing Miles, but several characters were only glimpsed fleetingly in the church, like Libby -- I may have just missed him.
ReplyDeleteHad the same thought re: Penny -- she never made it to the island, but she was Desmond's constant, so she gets to be there with him.
Yes to Penny, no to Miles - nor was any of the science team, I think.
ReplyDeleteHarold Perrinneau said an interesting thing on the Jimmy Kimmel show - that Michael isn't there because he's stuck on the island, as a ghost.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Christian also died on the island and was seen there as a ghost, but we now know that was the smoke monster impersonating him, so I suppose it works out.
I had the same thought about Ben - and it amuses me, after how much of a baddie Ben was for so long, that I was thinking "poor Ben!" But, of course, Ben wasn't a candidate, and it had to be Hurley. I do love that Hurley and Ben got to play Skipper and Gilligan for a good long time, and I LOVED the acknowledgement that Jacob's way was only one way, and maybe Hurley could be a more benevolent dictator, especially without Smoky around.
ReplyDelete<span>
ReplyDelete<p>Sorry, I just think "meandering tangent" is too harsh a view. Sure, Dharma/Others/Jughead/time travel/Widmore did not directly tie into the resolution, but each of those plotlines played a part in getting us there. As just one example, if not for time travel, the Others, and the Temple, Young Ben does not become "Ben." Sayid shoots Young Ben in 1974, and Kate insists on saving him, so they take him to the Others who bring him to the Temple and heal/revive him, with the caveat that he's going to come back "not the same." (Then this season, we get another Temple revival that illustrates one way someone comes back not the same.) And Widmore certainly has an impact on who or what Ben becomes. I think we can agree that Ben's character plays a pretty important part in how things wind up -- those events that shaped him, to me, are still relevant even if they aren't directly brought to bear in the finale.
</p></span>
Oh - I totally missed that about Juliet's line. Makes tons of sense - and really interesting, to boot. thanks.
ReplyDeleteBut I do not buy the "island submerged in the subconscious" bit. Darlton said, even in the clip show, that they wanted to show us the Island at the bottom of the ocean. Doesn't work for me at all.
And I completely agree that they planned season 6 meticulously. Which is why the finale works so well as a season ender, but less well as a series ender.
As I think about it, a few of the smaller moments I loved:
ReplyDelete* Vincent coming to lay with Jack as he died - so Jack truly didn't die alone.
* The big smiles on Sun and Jin's faces as they left the hospital, newly awakened, and saw their old friend Sawyer, who didn't understand yet.
* Sayid finding Shannon.
* Ben telling Hurley, "That's how Jacob ran things" when Hurley said people couldn't leave the island. It was such a gentle way of telling Hurley that he could make his own way.
Christian didn't die on the island - his body was brought there by Jack.
ReplyDeleteI missed Libby at the church - when did we see her?
I thought Locke was in the room.
ReplyDeleteLibby was indeed in the Church, sitting with Hurley.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteMarsha, it was very fleetingly, alongside Hugo.
ReplyDelete<span>I hate -- please let me emphasize, HATE -- that people are calling it purgatory. That's too specific and too literal. If you want to be literal, it can't be purgatory. The whole point of purgatory is that you have to stay there for a period of time, and, as Christian said, time doesn't exist where the group was gathering. Purgatory is painful, and you don't get to choose, like Ben, whether you're done with it. The show just invented a kind of intermediate state, not all of the rules of which were defined or developed, where people lived lives a bit parallel to their real lives before realizing that they were dead. I'm not sure it's helpful to try to be any more specific than that. The show left dozens of mysteries unsolved. Why would anybody be certain that there was a secret answer to this mystery? </span>
ReplyDeleteIsaac, I think you probably mean "Walt" rather than "Locke" in your comment above.
ReplyDeleteI accidentally deleted the comment anyway. So I assume you're right, and I meant Walt, not Locke. But my point, to restate it at somewhat less length, is that it's like throwing a party at your apartment. You don't invite everyone you know. You make some cuts. People you didn't know all that well (Lapidus), who have drifted away (Miles?), or who shot one of your friends or spent most of a six-year period trying to kill you (Ben, Michael) weren't invited.
ReplyDeleteAnd if we assume this is Hugo's soiree as the more recent (and longer-serving) Protector of the Island, then it certainly would make sense that between Libby and Michael, someone's not getting invited. And Miles deliberately tried *not* to make a connection (with his dad).
ReplyDeleteStill, folks like Nadia and Juliet's sister might be disappointed to not remain Most Important Connection Of The Other Person's Life.
If anyone cares about this conversation, I've continued it in the other thread.
ReplyDeleteIsaac, it seems Ben was, at least, invited. He chose not to come because he wanted to hang out with his girlfriend and her daughter instead of partying with a bunch of people who made him feel like crap in high school.
ReplyDeleteI'm ok with Juliet's sister not being her most important connection. Much less so with Nadia.
I'll go back and look for Libby. I'm glad she was there - I would hate to think that Hurley went through all that not to end up with Libby.
I was thinking about the Nadia problem, and remembered that Sayid told her that he could never really be with her, because all of the awful things that he did were between them. But that wasn't true with Shannon, right?
ReplyDeleteIsaac, I don't know enough about theology to know if it is truly purgatory or not, but it's hard not to gravitate toward the word when there's such overt Jesus imagery and a bunch of dead people in a church going into the light led by a Christian Shepherd. (Loved Kate calling that out, by the way.)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Jesus had a stab wound in his side, just like Jack, right?
Obsessing? me? Nah...
ReplyDeleteKen Levine's comments are worth reading: http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2010/05/my-review-of-last-lost.html
Among my favorite bits:
"I was hoping Richard would be real excited taking his first plane flight. “<span>Hey, look at these little trays that come down from the back of these seats</span>!” Also, good luck getting through Customs, Richard. Saying you’re from the Canary Islands in the 14th century is not going to get you into America, buddy."
"So I guess we’re saying that Ben’s going to hell? At the end of the day he’s the one person who didn’t join “the others”? Or maybe he didn’t want to go in there because in the six year run of the series every person in that room had beaten the crap out of him at least twice." (Loved the bit in the clip show about Ben being the most pummeled character in TV history.)
"When the plane flew over the island one last time weren’t you hoping they’d look out the window and see “<span>Goodbye Hawkeye</span>”?"
Not sure if this is going to double-post, but I didn't mean it literally. Stop being so literal! I didn't mean that Hurley or any other character literally decided who would be in the church and who wouldn't. I just meant that when the writers decided the church was small tent, not large tent, they picked the right characters to leave out.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I don't think that they suggested that those were the only people who were going to be together for the rest of eternity -- nothing says that Jin and Sun can't attend an afterlife party with their friends and then go home to Ji Yeon, or that they can't be in both places at once, for that matter, since time has no meaning. Since the show is the only official record we have of what the show's rules are, if the show doesn't answer a question for you, you can feel free to choose the most satisfying answer for yourself.
I do like Jenn's idea that Sayid could be with Shannon forever because she's no great shakes herself.
They were engaged, but it didn't work out. I buy that they have a strong connection and that they were partners across the universes and all that. So were Hurley and Charlie. So were Kate and Claire. I really do like the idea that like Sayid, Kate didn't have just One Great Love. She had a strong-but-different connection with several different partners throughout her life. So I wasn't as thrilled by the idea that most of our characters had to be sorted into neat little heteronormative pairs just before entering the light. And especially in the case of Kate and Jack, I think I would buy it much more as a not-necessarily-romantic pairing than a "OK just so it's clear, let's have them make out one more time" definitely-romantic pairing.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, for these same reasons I'm really happy that Kate was woken up by Claire and Jack was woken up by Christian. And to be clear, I wasn't hoping for a Kate/Sawyer romantic pairing instead. I just never bought Kate and Jack in a romantic way.
Marsha -- re purgatory, a few thoughts. First, it's associated with Catholic theology, but you can't find it in the bible and I don't believe it's official doctrine of most of the other major Christian denominations. You'd know better than I do, but I don't think of it as a Jewish doctrine. I've never heard it associated with Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. I think those were the other religions represented on the stained glass window. I kind of think the writers were explicitly trying to push us away from any specific theological underpinning for the sideways world with that.
ReplyDeleteSecond, Wiki: "Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment<sup></sup><span> </span>in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for Heaven. " "Temporary" is meaningless if there is no such thing as time in the afterlife. "Die in a state of grace" is wrong if the sideways world includes people like Keamy and Mikhail.
Third, the most fundamental feature of purgatory is that it is punishment. If people like Ben, Hurley, Claire, and Ellie Widmore are happier in the sideways world than in the real lives they led, then it can't really be purgatory.
Whatever the sideways world really was supposed to be, or whatever answer you find most satisfying, the writers of the show basically made it clear that it's not purgatory. It is not a place where people who died repentant get tortured for their sins before ascending to heaven.
Richard probably has a fake passport from his Mittelos Bioscience days. The real question is how Lapidus is going to explain his flight arriving two weeks late with all but one of his passengers missing or dead.
ReplyDeleteDuh. Richard did travel to Miami and elsewhere on the mainland to recruit Juliet, and presumably didn't only use the submarine for that.
ReplyDeleteI think the aggressively multi-denominational stained-glass window was meant to try and counterbalance the overwhelmingly Christian philosophy otherwise depicted.
ReplyDeleteIf Jack’s father’s name wasn’t enough of a tipoff, consider the ritual of transferring Island protectorhood. And don't forget Mr. Eko - one of the quotes on his staff is John 3:5, which says, “<span>"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."</span>
I know you weren't being literal, but Desmond and Hurley did seem to be in more of an organizing role.
ReplyDeleteOther thing I liked, previously unmentioned: the head-fake first missed opportunity between Sawyer and Juliet.
And of course Richard came to the mainland to visit Boy Locke too. But I'll go out on a limb and suggest that not one person taking off on that plane from Hydra Island had current possession of his or her real or fake passport. Customs problems all around!
ReplyDeleteWell, here's a filigree on a theory:
ReplyDelete"This flash-sideways universe is one final gift from the last protector of the Island that we see -- Hurley -- to everyone he ever knew or loved. It is a chance for him to do what he does best, as Ben says. He is taking care of people, giving them both what they wanted and what they needed. The structure here is meant to be elusive, to always run just ahead of us while we chase along behind. At some point in the "Lost" world, all of these people die. And then they end up in the sideways world, where they're able to have what they wanted (perhaps thanks to Hurley). And then Desmond becomes their spiritual counselor, in a way, helping them to let go."
I agree with Eric J. I think the wreckage coda exists outside the cannon of the story, because it appeared after the LOST title card went up. It felt mostly like a "hey, remember how we got this awesome plane wreckage for the pilot? That was awesome" but in a more artful way. :)
ReplyDeleteYup. I get that there is an analogy here to purgatory---one that is heightened by the presence of Christian Shepherd, etc.---but boiled down to its essence, purgatory in the Catholic worldview is about burning off sins, while Sideways World seemed to be more about attaining enlightenment, rather than soul purification.
ReplyDeleteI am pondering the concept that Island Hurley created Sideways World to enable his friends to remeet and end up together. I think that I like the idea, but I need to think about it some more.
was the church at the end **heaven** as we traditionally think of it, or was it jack's heaven? with the resolution now in hand, the show seems to me to have been jack's story more than anything else. the people in the church were the people who were most relevant to jack's life, not necessarily all of the rest of them to each other (eg some of those people would have had kids in the future who would have featured in their heaven; unlikely jack's father would have featured in these other people's heaven; etc). the forms that the people are in in the church were the forms from when jack knew them last (either when they died or when he died), but not as they would have been when they died. and, of course, the opening and closing of the show being centered on jack. just a thought.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Purgatory seems to be the easy thing to call it because most people are coming to it from a cultural perspective where purgatory is the closest thing that already "exists" in our common vocabulary. But it's clearly not meant to literally be purgatory. Again, I think that big fat stained window with really obvious symbols of the world's religious screamed "even though we're in a church and this seems kind of like purgatory, we're actually not favoring any one particular religious tradition! Just to be clear!"
ReplyDeleteIt's a nice theory. I could poke some holes in it, but I don't think it's better or worse than any competing theory. The show is over, and nobody is ever going to prove or disprove any theory. Men of science, despair. Men of faith, believe what you want.
ReplyDeleteI had a feeling you were going to return to your Sopranos mantra of "they told the story they wanted to tell, and when it ended it ended, and however you want to interpret what follows is up to you."
ReplyDeleteTo push you on this a little bit, Isaac (not that I really care if it is actually purgatory or not), I don't know that Mikhail and Keamy "exist" in the sideways world, or if they are simply characters in our heroes' worlds meant to help them "let go." Mikhail and Keamy don't show up in the church, of course - they're just tools to help with the "purification" (not necessarily punishment, according to the wiki definition).
ReplyDeleteI also didn't take Christian's comment about "there is no now" to mean there is no *perception* of time in the sideways world - there clearly is. It's just that there's no reality of time. The place isn't earthbound. But that doesn't mean that the people aren't spending what they perceive as "time" in the place before they can let go and move on.
So far as I know, no such thing as purgatory in Judaism - we don't really have Heaven or Hell either.
Can someone tell me if I'm right about Jesus having a stab wound in his side? I was asking, not pointing out.
In the clip show, Matthew Fox mentioned that only 4 scenes in the whole run of the show were shot outside Hawaii. Anyone know which four? I'm curious.
ReplyDeletevia Wiki:
ReplyDeleteSeveral scenes in the Season 3 finale, "Through the Looking Glass", were shot in Los Angeles, including a hospital set borrowed from Grey's Anatomy. Two scenes during season four were filmed in London because Alan Dale who portrays Widmore was at the time performing in the musical Spamalot and was unable to travel to Hawaii.<span>[</span>
In case you're still wondering, Marsha, yes, you're right about Christ having a wound in His side.
ReplyDeleteThank you! Seemed important, but I wasn't sure.
ReplyDeleteThanks. I looked at Wikipedia and couldn't find that.
ReplyDeleteThanks for indulging my Daniel question, all. I felt like I saw that knowing smile from Daniel, but maybe he wasn't quite there yet. I'll keep it in mind when I rewatch.
ReplyDeleteX posted from the other thread:
ReplyDeleteSo I didn't like it much at all. Too shmoopy for me. The light is everything? A 6 year long con for that? And I was all in until about 2 weeks ago and then I started to feel the long con coming. I read Doc Jensen and tons of other recaps, plus check here. I was really hoping for closure. I didn't really need answers to every single outstanding question, but I don't really see how it all ties together at all.
Here is where I am stuck. If we are to believe that 815 crashed intially, and whoever died, died, and Jack etc lived on, that's plausible to me. They were on the island until they left as the Oceanic 6, and those who stayed lived on. The 6 came back, still alive, eventually caught up with those who stayed and then some died in the process of trying to leave again and some left, alive. So at the end, Jack died on the island, but Lapidus, Miles, Sawyer, Kate, Richard and Claire left the island alive and lived the rest of their lives off island and died at a later date. Hurley and Ben remained on the island with Rose and Bernard, and they all died whenever they died.
So here's where I am confused. By the time Jack dies, are we to assume everyone else has been dead a while and are in purgatory (or limbo or whatever you want to call it) until he's ready to go because they can't "go" without him? I get that they all appear as we know them when they meet up, but are we to assume that Kate, Charlie, Claire, etc (those at the concert), all died together? I am unclear on when they all died and what they did in the meantime and if they were dead, how could they be seen by others?
If we are to assume they all died when 815 crashed, then what were all the shenanigans on the island about and all the back and forth? I have to assume they all lived past that crash, or what was the point of the Oceanic 6?
And, at the end, what plane did we see crashed on the beach? Ajira? Oceanic? I still have more questions about Ben's purpose, Dharma's purpose, etc, etc, etc. I just needed to get this all out because I can't quite make sense of it.
I like this theory. At least, it could plausibly fit in with my existing LOST worldview.
ReplyDeleteSo Tracie from Jezebel posted a theory that's not too far off from what I was mulling over with my path to enlightenment theory: http://jezebel.com/5546559/ (Warning, uh...it's Tracie from Jezebel, so, it's occasionally on the vulgar side. If things such as referring to the cork only as "the butt plug" offends you, maybe it's not the recap for you).
ReplyDeleteBut I also think that the events of the island are not as separate from the metaphysical conclusion as some seem to think. In my working theory, the island is perhaps a place in between--not purgatory. It literally and physically exists in this world, on earth. But that it's maybe the place on earth where the veil between this world and the next is thinnest. A common element of fantasy fiction. Perhaps the light is there because of this, or perhaps this is the case because the light is there. But either way, that's what leads people to form cults around the island and its properties--the Others, Dharma, whoever built the statue, etc. And maybe it's part of the job of the guardian of the place to usher those who are ready into that next place.
<span>much longer. The Sideverse exists "out of time" -- we were shown it alongside the Lostverse circa Season 6, but it doesn't "occur" then, or at any other time. So, for example, outside the Church, Hurley and Ben discuss their reign as Number 1 and Number 2, which obviously occurred after Jack's death. Likewise, there's at least a good chance that Lapidus, Kate, Sawyer, Miles, and Claire, lived long lives after escaping from the Island. They're all together in the Altverse not because they died at the same time but because they played key roles in the most important part of Jack's life, and died whenever. </span>
ReplyDeleteOops, some of that got cut off at the beginning. Sorry about that! I think the beginning was jsut something to the effect of "They all died at different times, some before Jack (Libby, Sun and Jin, etc.), but also some -- in Christian's words -- "much later."
ReplyDeleteI like that Ben was invited to go with everything, but it really doesn't make sense that Michael was stuck on the Island (he didn't even die there) while Ben got to go to the sideways world, does it? Certainly Ben did far worse things than Michael. And in the first few seasons, Michael was a major character who had many significant interactions with the other major characters.
ReplyDeleteI did hear a theory on Jack and the light. Someone mentioned that he looked like he also had a nose bleed like the characters did who time traveled. I think he died of the stab wound due to where it was and how deep and the blood loss...maybe the light did have an effect on him to some degree? Just someone else's theory. :)
ReplyDelete