Former players Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons and Rusty Staub; former manager Billy Martin; and executives Pat Gillick**, Marvin Miller and George Steinbrenner.My votes would go to Miller for sure; Simmons probably and John possibly (I need to crunch the numbers); and Steinbrenner ... reluctantly, but yes.
** As to Gillick, Isaac suggests that I note: "He has fetishistic preferences for age over youth and for newspaper stats over advanced metrics, and Philadelphia is the first team that he has not left in a complete shambles at the end of his tenure (having traded away or shelved all of the youthful talent in the process of acquiring aging veterans)... In 2003, when the Mariners were one obvious flaw away from a second 100-win/AL West title season, he spent the trading deadline 3000 miles and a continent away from the office, paying no attention, because that was the day he picked to move his family into their new house. The Mariners won 93 games and finished a game and a half back of Oakland after not making a significant move all year, including (of course) at the deadline. They badly needed a 3B (Cirillo's OPS+ was 74) and could have used an upgrade at SS (Carlos Guillen, pre-Detroit, had an OPS+ of 107 but was playing terrible defense), plus they could have used a PH because their bench stunk."
added: Fired Joe Morgan! ESPN Sunday Night Baseball is replacing its broadcast crew with Dan Shulman, Orel Hershiser and, if he's not managing somewhere, Bobby Valentine.
The cynic in me thinks "hmmm....1973 means Ron Santo was only in the league for a year of the time period they're considering. How sneaky." Then I think, "naw, the Hall would never pull a shenanigan like that just to keep one player out" and chuckle as I contemplate that Selig is as self-deluded as usual.
ReplyDeletearvin Miller is a no-brainer.
ReplyDeleteI think Tommy John is just short. Most comparable pitcher is Bert Blyleven, and the comparison doesn't look good for John, especially if you start counting all those unearned runs against him because he never struck anyone out.
I'd give it to Dave Concepcion as the best shortstop of the 1970s. Also, because it would piss Pete Rose off that he's the only one in the Big Red Machine infield who didn't make it. But I wouldn't cry too hard if he didn't make it.
Speaking of Rose, if we can ban him from the Hall, and if we can de facto ban McGwire from the Hall, then we can say Steinbrenner doesn't get in for what he did to Dave Winfield.
I'm cool with Tommy John in the Hall, so long as he's a joint inductee with Dr. Frank Jobe...
ReplyDeleteYay! Our Sunday-night national pastime nightmare is over! That said, I've never wanted Bobby Valentine to get a coaching job, but damn, I do now.
ReplyDeleteNext, Fox needs to drop kick Tim McCarver and Joe Buck. [fingers crossed]
I'm probably the only person who kind of likes McCarver, but that might be only in comparison to Buck.
ReplyDelete(Incidentally, hat tip to a Deadspin commentator for coming up with the scariest possible replacement for Miller and Morgan: <span>"ESPN would like to welcome the new 'Sunday Night Baseball' team, Chip Carey and Rob Dibble." )</span>
What does Fire Joe Morgan do now that they've succeeded in their mission? Oh wait? It's been two years since FJM ended? Success is still success!
ReplyDeleteNext up: Joe Buck. He's twice as annoying as McCarver, because he ruins Fox's NFL broadcasts in addition to their baseball. What does he have on Murdoch?
What does Fire Joe Morgan do now that they've succeeded in their mission? Oh wait? It's been two years since FJM ended? Success is still success!
ReplyDeleteNext up: Joe Buck. He's twice as annoying as McCarver, because he ruins Fox's NFL broadcasts in addition to their baseball. What does he have on Murdoch?
I probably don't care at all about non-players, except that it is obvious that Steinbrenner belongs and Gillick does not. Of the players, I vote no on all of them. Vida Blue had one great year and a bunch of decent years scattered in with a lot of average years. Tommy John's case, on the numbers, is even worse (to me). His case is premised entirely on two things: (1) longevity; and (2) the surgery. As to the former, I think that rate stats are far more important than counting stats and peak performance is far more important than longevity. I don't think you belong in the Hall of Fame if you were a serviceable #3 starter for longer than anybody else in the game. The HOF is not for #3 starters, or even for people who were #2 starters at their peak unless the guy pitching in front of them was also a Hall of Famer. As to the latter point, that was something that was done to Tommy John, not something he did. I would be all in favor of inducting Tommy John Surgery into the Hall of Fame, but its namesake should be happy with the honor of giving its induction speech.
ReplyDeleteThe case for Simmons:
ReplyDelete1. There's not nearly enough catchers in the Hall -- just 13, and 5 of them got in via VC. Carter and Fisk were the last two, presumably Piazza, Posada and Pudge will get in.
2. 21 seasons at 117 OPS+, 8 ASGs, frequently a top-3 catcher in terms of stealers caught.
Now I'm kind of hoping that Joe Morgan uses his free time to start a blog calling for the cancellation of The Office.
ReplyDeleteThat's 21 seasons of this year's Carlos Quentin or Casey McGehee. Although that's not fair -- Simmons certainly had many seasons better than either Quentin or McGehee. Which is why peak is more important than career. I know nothing whatsoever about Simmons, who played in the NL at a time when I barely even knew that there were NL teams other than the Mets. I suppose I could be convinced, but was he really a great player or just a good player with a long career?
ReplyDeleteMarvin Miller just has to be in. As does Steinbrenner. Both changed the game without ever stepping onto the field.
ReplyDeleteAs for Joe Morgan, I think I'm the only person in America that thought he did a good job. He was opinionated, but it was based on a Hall of Fame career. And he was, at one time, the pride of the Houston Colt .45s
But the guy who absolutely, positively belongs in the Hall of Fame is Shoeless Joe Jackson. No ifs, ands, or buts. 5 years after that, Pete Rose now that he has mea culpa'd
The latter, mostly, but the only catchers (50%+ games at catcher, 5000+ PAs) with higher OPS+ in the post-integration era are: Piazza, Tenace (?), Bench, Berra, Posada, Tetteton and Fisk. He's ahead of Carter and Pudge. His peak years, '77-'80, were at 135-148 OPS+ -- Werth/Dunn level in 2010.
ReplyDelete(Damn, I love the B-R search tool.)
And by WAR (same criteria), he's behind Bench, Pudge, Fisk, Carter, Berra and Piazza, but ahead of Posada. That sounds right.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteWell, yeah. I mean, I think everybody agrees that Shoeless Joe Jackson was one of the greatest players ever. But it doesn't bother me too much, because the reason he is not in the HOF has nothing to do with his performance. With steroids, people argue that the on-field performance was (I'm tempted to insert "somehow" here) unrelated to the player's actual talent or work, so you can't fairly evaluate them without the cheating. But with Shoeless Joe, I don't even think you can find anybody to take the stupid part of the argument.
ReplyDelete