Huh. That was a pretty well thought out article. I think I would give Eminem a bit more on some of those, but things like business acumen and live touring really did stick him in the hole. (The author did miss one interesting collaboration, the Eminem and Dido classic "Stan.")
Is it just me or is it completely insane that the question of Greatest Living Rapper includes a category like Business Empire? Or that it includes a second category called Money, which is both redundant and irrelevant? It seems like the author realized Eminem has outsold Jay-Z (with roughly half the number of albums), has earned more awards than Jay-Z (including half an EGOT), has more number 1 hits than Jay-Z and is technically more proficient than Jay-Z, so he created a bunch of lesser categories to give Jay-Z the numerical edge. Also, Eminem gets no credit for collaborating with Rihanna, Nate Dogg, Dr. Dre or Dido (if Jay-Z's mash up with Linkin Park counts, so does Eminem's use of Dido's song)?
I actually think the question of rapper versus rapper is pretty close, as there isn't much of a gap in the categories that matter, even though Eminem comes on top in each of them. But by including these other categories to bolster Jay-Z's claim to the title, it makes Hova's case feel weaker.
I completely agree. I was disappointed that they spent so much time on impresario/random aspects rather than their actual skills as a rapper. It's kind of weird that they combined lyrics with technical skill/flow, as those are two distinct, but hugely important, aspects of rapping.
Also, does the East Coast/West Coast rap war not count as a "beef" (Hit 'Em Up certainly sounds like diss track), as that would seem "bigger" than Nas/Jay Z.
An interesting point, Adam, but I tend to think of it as a collaboration due to her involvement with the video. Lame sauce, perhaps, but just over the edge for me.<span> </span>
The thing is that you see sales numbers and such regularly cited by rappers' fans as part of their argument for their favorite being the greatest of all time. Money, women, fame, hordes of people interested in their rapping, etc.---all of these are part of the discussion.
Exactly. Shorter article: Jay-Z is the better entrepreneur, thus he's the better rapper. Which leaves out the small problem that Em is the better rapper, thus he's the better rapper.
I think the key is that rap traditionally has been about boastfulness and self-promotion, which is what Jigga does extraordinarily well. Eminem subverted that paradigm with self-deprecation/-loathing, which has generated its own subgenre both comical (Spose) and more serious (some of Kanye's stuff, like "Diamonds From Sierra Leone"). They're from different universes and come at the game from very different angles--Jay-Z wants to be the Greatest Rapper In The World (or at least to tell you that), while Eminem is going to attempt to deflate his own greatness.
Thanks for being far more succinct and eloquent than me! Here's a different question, though. Could Eminem remain successful as a rapper if he were to build an empire like Jay-Z? It seems to me there is a limited market for the rappings of a middle-aged white tycoon with a series of thriving businesses, a beautiful, talented, successful wife and multiple millions in the bank, no matter how well crafted the rhymes or how smooth the beats. Even though Eminem himself talks about using "black music to make [him]self wealthy" he still needs to be remembered as the Jimmy B-Rabbit character from 8 Mile in order to make his place in the rap world feel legitimate. I don't think he can do that if he lives, and raps about, Jay-Z's opulent life.
Before I even read the article I had Eminem in mind as the 'better rapper', and most of the comments here seemed to confirm that. Lyrically gifted and can free-style with the best. And I say this as a BIGGER fan of JayZ and honestly dont care for Eminem's music.
It does appear that the author expanded the definition of 'rapper' to encompass business acumen, financial success, and generally appearing to have your life together. He should have outlined his definition at the beginning.
I did get a ick out of this line from the 'relationship' paragraph, however: On the other hand, Beyoncé.
Huh. That was a pretty well thought out article. I think I would give Eminem a bit more on some of those, but things like business acumen and live touring really did stick him in the hole. (The author did miss one interesting collaboration, the Eminem and Dido classic "Stan.")
ReplyDeleteWas that a collaboration or just a sampling?
ReplyDeleteIt's a bit of an unfair comparison given the personal issues which have sidelined Eminem over much of this past decade. But a good article.
The more interesting comparison to me would be Eminem and Michael Vick. Whose talent transcends their personal odiousness?
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or is it completely insane that the question of Greatest Living Rapper includes a category like Business Empire? Or that it includes a second category called Money, which is both redundant and irrelevant? It seems like the author realized Eminem has outsold Jay-Z (with roughly half the number of albums), has earned more awards than Jay-Z (including half an EGOT), has more number 1 hits than Jay-Z and is technically more proficient than Jay-Z, so he created a bunch of lesser categories to give Jay-Z the numerical edge. Also, Eminem gets no credit for collaborating with Rihanna, Nate Dogg, Dr. Dre or Dido (if Jay-Z's mash up with Linkin Park counts, so does Eminem's use of Dido's song)?
ReplyDeleteI actually think the question of rapper versus rapper is pretty close, as there isn't much of a gap in the categories that matter, even though Eminem comes on top in each of them. But by including these other categories to bolster Jay-Z's claim to the title, it makes Hova's case feel weaker.
Mathers' personal problems are much less than Vick's. Not even the same ballpark.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. I was disappointed that they spent so much time on impresario/random aspects rather than their actual skills as a rapper. It's kind of weird that they combined lyrics with technical skill/flow, as those are two distinct, but hugely important, aspects of rapping.
ReplyDeleteAlso, does the East Coast/West Coast rap war not count as a "beef" (Hit 'Em Up certainly sounds like diss track), as that would seem "bigger" than Nas/Jay Z.
An interesting point, Adam, but I tend to think of it as a collaboration due to her involvement with the video. Lame sauce, perhaps, but just over the edge for me.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteThe thing is that you see sales numbers and such regularly cited by rappers' fans as part of their argument for their favorite being the greatest of all time. Money, women, fame, hordes of people interested in their rapping, etc.---all of these are part of the discussion.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Shorter article: Jay-Z is the better entrepreneur, thus he's the better rapper. Which leaves out the small problem that Em is the better rapper, thus he's the better rapper.
ReplyDeleteI think the key is that rap traditionally has been about boastfulness and self-promotion, which is what Jigga does extraordinarily well. Eminem subverted that paradigm with self-deprecation/-loathing, which has generated its own subgenre both comical (Spose) and more serious (some of Kanye's stuff, like "Diamonds From Sierra Leone"). They're from different universes and come at the game from very different angles--Jay-Z wants to be the Greatest Rapper In The World (or at least to tell you that), while Eminem is going to attempt to deflate his own greatness.
ReplyDeleteThanks for being far more succinct and eloquent than me! Here's a different question, though. Could Eminem remain successful as a rapper if he were to build an empire like Jay-Z? It seems to me there is a limited market for the rappings of a middle-aged white tycoon with a series of thriving businesses, a beautiful, talented, successful wife and multiple millions in the bank, no matter how well crafted the rhymes or how smooth the beats. Even though Eminem himself talks about using "black music to make [him]self wealthy" he still needs to be remembered as the Jimmy B-Rabbit character from 8 Mile in order to make his place in the rap world feel legitimate. I don't think he can do that if he lives, and raps about, Jay-Z's opulent life.
ReplyDeleteBefore I even read the article I had Eminem in mind as the 'better rapper', and most of the comments here seemed to confirm that. Lyrically gifted and can free-style with the best. And I say this as a BIGGER fan of JayZ and honestly dont care for Eminem's music.
ReplyDeleteIt does appear that the author expanded the definition of 'rapper' to encompass business acumen, financial success, and generally appearing to have your life together. He should have outlined his definition at the beginning.
I did get a ick out of this line from the 'relationship' paragraph, however: On the other hand, Beyoncé.
I would like to hear more 30-40ish men who own sport coats and wear ties for a living debating the relative merits of rappers.
ReplyDeleteThen there's For MCs, A New Dawn Of Tolerance Beckons.
ReplyDelete