STOP ME IF YOU'VE HEARD THIS ONE BEFORE: Multiple sources are reporting that Cliff Lee will sign with the Philadelphia Phillies -- I'm hearing 5y/$100M.
Yes: a rotation of Halladay-Lee-Oswalt-Hamels-Blanton. Wow.
My jaw is still hanging open. I think they'll try to deal Blanton, even if they have to eat some of his contract, just so they can afford some RH power, but still. Good God. This Big 4 tops Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine/Avery among all-time rotations. And any other 1-4 I can think of. Ever.
I'm confused. A professional athlete that became a star for a Cleveland franchise has chosen to exercise his rights as a free agent to join a team stocked with his friends in hopes of tilting the competitive balance of the sport. Doesn't that make him one of history's greatest monsters?
Also, multiple reports (Zolecki, Heyman, Crasnick) now suggest there's an easily reached vesting option for a sixth year. Probably something like 6y/$120M when all is said and done.
Refreshing to see someone reject the Yankees. Isn't this a lesson in the influence of wives on players? I'm sure his wife was just clamoring for him to play in New York so she could get spit at again.
Hmmm. I don't understand how there can be such hatred for the Yankees when the Phillies just did what the Yankees have been hated for: Went out and tried to buy a championship.
Right. We made a market-priced offer to a guy who liked playing with us and wanted to do it again, and he left guaranteed years AND money on the table to come back. If we were trying to buy a championship, we'd have backed the Brinks truck up for Werth also. Instead, we used that money for Lee, and we're heading into the season with a platoon-happy corner outfield rotation featuring Ibanez, Ross Gload, Ben Francisco and unproven Dom Brown.
The Globe is even speculating that the Red Sox helped encourage the Phillies to sign Lee by saying they'd take Blanton, in order to keep Lee off the Yankees.
Agreed. The difference is that for the Phillies, signing Lee limits what else they can do. For the Yankees, there's never a limit, and one monster signing doesn't preclude another.
So it's OK to try to win a championship by paying boatloads of money for the best free agents -- just as long as another team or two was willing to boatloads more? I understand what you're saying, and if you're willing to take an absolutist position that as long as there's free agency, we shouldn't begrudge anyone from spending money to get the top players, I can't argue. But the fact is that even though the Phillies weren't the highest bidders, they were one of only about a half-dozen teams that could afford to even make a bid at all, even at market price, and one of probably fewer teams than that that could afford to keep Halladay and Oswalt and Lee on the same payroll.
However you slice it, it's still a case of being able to build a better team than the vast majority of the rest of the league because you have more money.
I have no qualms with that. If you got the money, might as well invest it. But I think it's silly to pretend the Phillies are doing anything differently than the Red Sox or the Yankees.
<span>Because we didn't try to outbid the field.</span> <span></span> <span>Well, it looks like the Phillies *successfully* outbid the field by offering more money upfront. The Yankee offer may have had a seventh year, but the Phillies' offer seems to include more money in each of the first six years. Hard to see much difference between what the Yankees have done and what the Phillies are doing, aside from the fact that the Phillies seem to be doing it better.</span>
Yes, but why do they have more money? Because of a local culture that supports the team, sells out every game, justifies a large local tv deal, etc.<span> </span>
I'm a Red Sox fan, and I'll be among the first to admit that MLB is broken badly. A plutocracy where a handful of wealthy teams use the rest of the league as a farm system doesn't make for good baseball. I'd much prefer an NFL-style model -- football's parity and baseball's lack thereof accounts for much of the increase/decrease in each sport's popularity, I think. That being said, even within such an imbalanced universe, the Yankees are an outlier. In some recent years, the gap in payroll between the Yankees and other wealthy teams like the Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, etc., has been greater than the total payrolls of some of the small market teams.
I'm not here to defend the existing state of plutocracy, but SOME version of plutocracy has existed for a long, long time. With the exception of periods when the Yankees were just poorly run (like when CBS owned the team, pre-George), they've been doing this since the Babe Ruth era, using "second division" teams like the A's as a de facto farm system. (Not to say the Yanks were alone in this behavior, but they're the easiest example.) Even NYY's lack of postseason success in the 1980s and early 90s wasn't for lack of spending -- although you could say it was for lack of spending wisely.
Can't speak for anybody else, but my "like" for Meghan's comment isn't about being mad at the Yankees for outbidding everyone, which is a systemic flaw for which baseball as a whole, and not the Yankees in particular, bears the greatest fault.
No, my "like" is just an expression of happiness that the kind of over-the-top conduct that one Yankee fan engaged in might have had (probably didn't have, but might have had) an actual consequence. Maybe it could have happened in any stadium in America (though it was certainly more likely in New York than in, say, St. Louis), and maybe the segment of Yankee fandom that tolerates that kind of behavior is too small to fairly tar the rest of the Yankees' fans. The fact is that it happened at Yankee Stadium, though, and it's pleasant to speculate that Cliff Lee didn't forget it.
Uh, I lived in Philadephia for 9 years. I attended some Sixers, Flyers, and Eagles games, and a whole lot of Phillies games (even holding partial season tickets for several years). I love Philadelphia and miss it a lot.
All that being said: If Cliff Lee based this decision even a tiny bit on fan conduct, he picked the wrong f'ing city.
I agree somewhat, Adam, but pre-free agency was a whole different ballgame. The poorer teams were more willing accomplices to the imbalance, because they had to decide affirmatively to sell a player's contract and weren't at risk of a star jumping ship for more money. Maybe the result is more or less the same, but it seems much more unjust today where poorer teams can't afford to be competitive. Granted, some smaller market teams could probably spend more than they do, but their owners may think it's not worth it to spend an extra $20 or $30 million to win 80 games instead of 70 when the odds of a championship are overwhelmingly negative in either case.
As a Rangers fan, I don't really like any of this and may quietly (or not so quietly) be flipping the Phillies the bird and throwing various choice curses their way. However, I will take comfort from the fact that 1) Lee helped us get into the World Series for the first time, and 2) he didn't go to the Yankees as I cry into my pillow each night.
As a native Philadelphian (and long-time Phils fan) currently living in DC (and rooting for the Nats), I have to look at this deal in terms of the competitive balance in the NL East. Frankly put, no one else in the division has a chance over the next two seasons or so against that rotation. The Phillies really only need to score about 3 runs a game to win, so it doesn't matter if Marvin Freeman is in the outfield.
That said, y'all better win the World Series in the next two years, because it starts to get ugly after that. In 2013, your youngest star will be 33. The two Roys will turn 36; Lee, 35. Hamels will be a free agent, as will a 35-yr-old Utley. Rollins likely won't be around anymore. Victorino and Ibanez will be aging/declining and also coming up on free agency.
So then, the question becomes: will the Phillies be able to re-load with young, inexpensive talent? Maybe, but it's a long shot. The Philly farm system was ranked 17th last year, and that assumed that Domonic Brown was a stud and the prospects they got for Lee when they let him go before were good. Neither has really turned out to be the case. The Phils lose a first rounder for signing Lee today. So, the farm will likely be towards the bottom of the pack next year and going forward (not to mention the low picks the team will have if, as expected, they lead the league for the next couple of years).
I am an unabashed optimist, but I think I'd rather be the 2014 Nats than the 2014 Phils at this point, with Strasburg, Harper, Zimmerman, Zimmermann, Desmond, Espinosa, Ramos/Flores, etc. coming into their primes, as opposed to a super-expensive team of stars with rapidly declining production. Enjoy the dynasty while it lasts.
Sorry, I've been totally ignoring sports media the last few weeks --- what is it that a Yankees fan did that made Cliff Lee not want to swim in the River of Money offered up?
In some recent years, the gap in payroll between the Yankees and other wealthy teams like the Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, etc., has been greater than the total payrolls of some of the small market teams.
It's still early, but it doesn't look like 2011 will one of those years, though. Pending further moves the Yankees, Red Sox and Phillies all look to be in one nice tight plutocratic clump in about the same payroll range.
When the Rangers were playing the Yankees during the ALCS, his wife was wearing Rangers gear in the stadium. Yankees fans in her section spit on her and hurled beer and obscenities at her.
Spit on Mrs. Lee when the Rangers were playing in the ALCS. (Just because Philly fans might well have done the same thing, or worse, doesn't mean we can't enjoy it when someone else's idiot fans work out to our benefit. We were always nice to Cliff.)
My jaw is still hanging open. I think they'll try to deal Blanton, even if they have to eat some of his contract, just so they can afford some RH power, but still. Good God. This Big 4 tops Maddux/Smoltz/Glavine/Avery among all-time rotations. And any other 1-4 I can think of. Ever.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused. A professional athlete that became a star for a Cleveland franchise has chosen to exercise his rights as a free agent to join a team stocked with his friends in hopes of tilting the competitive balance of the sport. Doesn't that make him one of history's greatest monsters?
ReplyDeleteSounds like Blanton may get dealt to clear some cash. But the #5 slot could be Zombie Nino Espinosa for all that it matters.
ReplyDeleteLet me just be clear about this: Either Cole Hamels or Roy Oswalt will be our FOURTH starter.
ReplyDeleteAlso, multiple reports (Zolecki, Heyman, Crasnick) now suggest there's an easily reached vesting option for a sixth year. Probably something like 6y/$120M when all is said and done.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't make the announcement on an hour-long basic cable infomercial for himself during the end phases of free agency.
ReplyDeleteWhat they all said. Just wow.
ReplyDeleteRefreshing to see someone reject the Yankees. Isn't this a lesson in the influence of wives on players? I'm sure his wife was just clamoring for him to play in New York so she could get spit at again.
ReplyDeleteAlso, LeBron left a dying city, while Lee is going to one.
ReplyDeleteLooks like us Phils' fans just got a very nice Christmas present.
ReplyDeleteGobsmakced. He PUNKED the Yanks.
ReplyDeleteGood for the Phillies. Would NOT count on Oswalt 100%, though.
I'm still warm and fuzzy over the White Sox lineup. Good Hot Stovin'
I'm so proud of Yankee fans. Thank you for helping the Phils land Cliff Lee. Now, suck it.
ReplyDeleteDying? Do DYING cities install the world's first (that I know of) Noam Chomsky mural?
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping for Marvin Freeman.
ReplyDeleteHmmm. I don't understand how there can be such hatred for the Yankees when the Phillies just did what the Yankees have been hated for: Went out and tried to buy a championship.
ReplyDeleteBecause we didn't try to outbid the field.
ReplyDeleteCurrent rumor is that the Phils are in serious talks with Boston to deal Blanton.
ReplyDeleteAndy Ashby?
ReplyDeleteRight. We made a market-priced offer to a guy who liked playing with us and wanted to do it again, and he left guaranteed years AND money on the table to come back. If we were trying to buy a championship, we'd have backed the Brinks truck up for Werth also. Instead, we used that money for Lee, and we're heading into the season with a platoon-happy corner outfield rotation featuring Ibanez, Ross Gload, Ben Francisco and unproven Dom Brown.
ReplyDeleteI don't care if it's 20 degrees out, I'm gonna rock my Cliff Lee jersey down 6th Avenue tonight! REPRESENT! (Been nice knowin' y'all.)
ReplyDeleteHohhhhhly cow.
ReplyDeleteThe Globe is even speculating that the Red Sox helped encourage the Phillies to sign Lee by saying they'd take Blanton, in order to keep Lee off the Yankees.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. The difference is that for the Phillies, signing Lee limits what else they can do. For the Yankees, there's never a limit, and one monster signing doesn't preclude another.
ReplyDeleteThat's not the only thing to hate that Yankees for.
ReplyDeleteSo it's OK to try to win a championship by paying boatloads of money for the best free agents -- just as long as another team or two was willing to boatloads more? I understand what you're saying, and if you're willing to take an absolutist position that as long as there's free agency, we shouldn't begrudge anyone from spending money to get the top players, I can't argue. But the fact is that even though the Phillies weren't the highest bidders, they were one of only about a half-dozen teams that could afford to even make a bid at all, even at market price, and one of probably fewer teams than that that could afford to keep Halladay and Oswalt and Lee on the same payroll.
ReplyDeleteHowever you slice it, it's still a case of being able to build a better team than the vast majority of the rest of the league because you have more money.
I have no qualms with that. If you got the money, might as well invest it. But I think it's silly to pretend the Phillies are doing anything differently than the Red Sox or the Yankees.
<span>Because we didn't try to outbid the field.</span>
ReplyDelete<span></span>
<span>Well, it looks like the Phillies *successfully* outbid the field by offering more money upfront. The Yankee offer may have had a seventh year, but the Phillies' offer seems to include more money in each of the first six years. Hard to see much difference between what the Yankees have done and what the Phillies are doing, aside from the fact that the Phillies seem to be doing it better.</span>
Omar Daaaaaaaaaal.
ReplyDeleteYes, but why do they have more money? Because of a local culture that supports the team, sells out every game, justifies a large local tv deal, etc.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteI'm a Red Sox fan, and I'll be among the first to admit that MLB is broken badly. A plutocracy where a handful of wealthy teams use the rest of the league as a farm system doesn't make for good baseball. I'd much prefer an NFL-style model -- football's parity and baseball's lack thereof accounts for much of the increase/decrease in each sport's popularity, I think. That being said, even within such an imbalanced universe, the Yankees are an outlier. In some recent years, the gap in payroll between the Yankees and other wealthy teams like the Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, etc., has been greater than the total payrolls of some of the small market teams.
ReplyDeleteI'm not here to defend the existing state of plutocracy, but SOME version of plutocracy has existed for a long, long time. With the exception of periods when the Yankees were just poorly run (like when CBS owned the team, pre-George), they've been doing this since the Babe Ruth era, using "second division" teams like the A's as a de facto farm system. (Not to say the Yanks were alone in this behavior, but they're the easiest example.) Even NYY's lack of postseason success in the 1980s and early 90s wasn't for lack of spending -- although you could say it was for lack of spending wisely.
ReplyDeleteCan't speak for anybody else, but my "like" for Meghan's comment isn't about being mad at the Yankees for outbidding everyone, which is a systemic flaw for which baseball as a whole, and not the Yankees in particular, bears the greatest fault.
ReplyDeleteNo, my "like" is just an expression of happiness that the kind of over-the-top conduct that one Yankee fan engaged in might have had (probably didn't have, but might have had) an actual consequence. Maybe it could have happened in any stadium in America (though it was certainly more likely in New York than in, say, St. Louis), and maybe the segment of Yankee fandom that tolerates that kind of behavior is too small to fairly tar the rest of the Yankees' fans. The fact is that it happened at Yankee Stadium, though, and it's pleasant to speculate that Cliff Lee didn't forget it.
Floyd Youmans. (And Danny Tartabull to play RF.)
ReplyDeleteMatt Beech?
ReplyDeleteUh, I lived in Philadephia for 9 years. I attended some Sixers, Flyers, and Eagles games, and a whole lot of Phillies games (even holding partial season tickets for several years). I love Philadelphia and miss it a lot.
ReplyDeleteAll that being said: If Cliff Lee based this decision even a tiny bit on fan conduct, he picked the wrong f'ing city.
I agree somewhat, Adam, but pre-free agency was a whole different ballgame. The poorer teams were more willing accomplices to the imbalance, because they had to decide affirmatively to sell a player's contract and weren't at risk of a star jumping ship for more money. Maybe the result is more or less the same, but it seems much more unjust today where poorer teams can't afford to be competitive. Granted, some smaller market teams could probably spend more than they do, but their owners may think it's not worth it to spend an extra $20 or $30 million to win 80 games instead of 70 when the odds of a championship are overwhelmingly negative in either case.
ReplyDeleteAs a Rangers fan, I don't really like any of this and may quietly (or not so quietly) be flipping the Phillies the bird and throwing various choice curses their way. However, I will take comfort from the fact that 1) Lee helped us get into the World Series for the first time, and 2) he didn't go to the Yankees as I cry into my pillow each night.
ReplyDeleteYou should see how glad Yankee fans are that they aren't stuck with Cliff Lee. Just read NYDN comments. They're so relieved!
ReplyDeleteAs a native Philadelphian (and long-time Phils fan) currently living in DC (and rooting for the Nats), I have to look at this deal in terms of the competitive balance in the NL East. Frankly put, no one else in the division has a chance over the next two seasons or so against that rotation. The Phillies really only need to score about 3 runs a game to win, so it doesn't matter if Marvin Freeman is in the outfield.
ReplyDeleteThat said, y'all better win the World Series in the next two years, because it starts to get ugly after that. In 2013, your youngest star will be 33. The two Roys will turn 36; Lee, 35. Hamels will be a free agent, as will a 35-yr-old Utley. Rollins likely won't be around anymore. Victorino and Ibanez will be aging/declining and also coming up on free agency.
So then, the question becomes: will the Phillies be able to re-load with young, inexpensive talent? Maybe, but it's a long shot. The Philly farm system was ranked 17th last year, and that assumed that Domonic Brown was a stud and the prospects they got for Lee when they let him go before were good. Neither has really turned out to be the case. The Phils lose a first rounder for signing Lee today. So, the farm will likely be towards the bottom of the pack next year and going forward (not to mention the low picks the team will have if, as expected, they lead the league for the next couple of years).
I am an unabashed optimist, but I think I'd rather be the 2014 Nats than the 2014 Phils at this point, with Strasburg, Harper, Zimmerman, Zimmermann, Desmond, Espinosa, Ramos/Flores, etc. coming into their primes, as opposed to a super-expensive team of stars with rapidly declining production. Enjoy the dynasty while it lasts.
I look forward to a NLCS rematch.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I've been totally ignoring sports media the last few weeks --- what is it that a Yankees fan did that made Cliff Lee not want to swim in the River of Money offered up?
ReplyDeleteIn some recent years, the gap in payroll between the Yankees and other wealthy teams like the Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, etc., has been greater than the total payrolls of some of the small market teams.
ReplyDeleteIt's still early, but it doesn't look like 2011 will one of those years, though. Pending further moves the Yankees, Red Sox and Phillies all look to be in one nice tight plutocratic clump in about the same payroll range.
Spat and threw beer at his wife during the ALCS.
ReplyDeleteWhen the Rangers were playing the Yankees during the ALCS, his wife was wearing Rangers gear in the stadium. Yankees fans in her section spit on her and hurled beer and obscenities at her.
ReplyDeleteAnother Nats fan here - hoping your optimism is well-founded.
ReplyDeleteWhen Lee was in NY pitching for Texas in the playoffs, some fan spit on his wife, who was sitting in the visiting players' comp section.
ReplyDeleteIbanez and Rollins are FA after this year, Lidge after 2012. Oswalt has a buy-out after 2011 or an option for 2012.
ReplyDeleteSpit on Mrs. Lee when the Rangers were playing in the ALCS. (Just because Philly fans might well have done the same thing, or worse, doesn't mean we can't enjoy it when someone else's idiot fans work out to our benefit. We were always nice to Cliff.)
ReplyDeletehttp://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5729471
ReplyDeleteSpit on his wife.
ReplyDelete