- "Show Don't Tell"--Possibly the most common knock on Studio 60 was that it spent an infinite time with characters telling us how brilliant and edgy the comedy writing on the show was, but when we saw the sketches themselves, they were far from brilliant. (Though Simon Helberg's Nicolas Cage impression was kinda funny.) Smash attempts to overcome this in two ways. First, we're incessantly reminded that the musical we're seeing is a work in progress with problems still being worked on, so we don't have the inflated expectations issue, at least thus far. Second, they've smartly brought in pros (Marc Shaiman and Scott Wittman) to write the songs and hired legit stage talent and choreographers, so when we see a fully staged number (especially the baseball one from the pilot) it works.
- "Inside Baseball"--Yes, there's a lot in the show that's very cookie-cutter--plucky girl from the midwest v. chorus girl for a starring role! A sleazy director trying to use the casting couch! "Spider-Man" jokes! But are people outside of NYC going to get who Michael Reidel is, much less why people are so neurotic about what he writes? Yes, folks who know theatre will eat it up, but that's not exactly a mass audience.
You can also almost see the network notes being put into action--Megan Hilty's introduction includes a loving pan up her (quite impressive) figure, for instance--but I'm interested to see if this can become a mainstream hit, though I can see NBC being quite happy if it does a solid audience of high-income viewers and keeps up with the acclaim given how deep the hole they're in is.
I loved the pilot, although I fall into the "theatre-people" camp somewhat. I was a Kat-backer when she was on AI, and have been hoping to see more of Hilty since her star turn in the "Heckler" episode of Louie, so this show is all kinds of fun for me.
ReplyDeleteI think the way they talk about Reidel perfectly well frames who he is -- you could easily have put a fictional name in there and we would have been like, "I GET IT, he's a columnist you all care about" -- and that there's great potential for this show to be a hit among the same people that love Dancing With the Stars and Glee. Maybe more of a DVR hit, but a hit if there's any justice for them.
Although I was disappointed that it wasn't an FNL spinoff.
Do i get some kind of credit if I successfully predict it's going to flop? Because I don't think non New York/LA America will bring itself to give a darn about behind the scenes of a New York threatre production and that the music here isn't going to appeal to the young kids buying up Glee songs on iTunes and it's going to just flop really badly.
ReplyDeleteThey should have had puppets. I'd watch a show about making a musical with puppets.
I'm so tired of people pretending that anyone actually exists outside of NYC and LA.
ReplyDeleteLike on Newhart -- Schyeah. Those people all choose to live miles away from the nearest Duane Reade.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm looking forward to checking it out tonight. But the big reason I'm glad it's finally premiering is that I'm SICK of seeing the same damn promo ad for it. It's all over NBC... it's all over CTV (the Canadian network showing it)... it's all over TSN (the Canadian sports network that's a partner of CTV)... it's even ALL OVER THE RADIO. (I hardly ever listen to the radio, and I've heard SMASH ads, so they must be pretty ubiquitous.)
ReplyDeleteCan we agree that all people love puppets?
ReplyDeleteIn order of the things I care about going into this show: large gap, Jack Davenport, huge gap, Katherine McPhee, medium gap, Debra Messing, Marc Shaiman, Megan Hilty, musical theater. Not sure it matters, though. Spacewoman hates sports, and she loved Sports Night and Friday Night Lights. She is not interested in dragons or fedualism, and she loved Game of Thrones. (Obligatory "human stories in a fantasy world" reference.) No matter what the topic, if the show is good, it will reach certain people and be cancelled within a few years, and if it is mediocre and flashy, it will reach an even larger number of people, and if it is abjectly terrible and flashy, it will either fail instantly or be the most popular thing on television.
ReplyDeleteIn answer to your question, I did not know who Michael Reidel was before reading Paul's comment. I also did not know who Anton Ego was before seeing Ratatouille.
I live in New York, read Paul's comment, and still dont know who Michael Reidel is. Is this show just supposed to be Glee for grownups? Any show for grownups on network tv is dicey unless it is a crime procedural. Which gives me an idea -- singing cops doing choreographed numbers.
ReplyDeleteNo one gets credit for predicting an NBC show will be unsuccessful.
ReplyDeleteI didn't connect this Hilty with the heckler on Louie, but I think that character has a lot to do with why I have taken an instant dislike to her. She has a permanent bitch-face. When she smiles in the previews, she looks sarcastic or condescending. When she doesn't smile, she looks petulant. In Louie, she was petulant and entitled. And if they're trying to make her into some kind of sex symbol, she will suffer from Paige Michalchuk syndrome.
ReplyDeleteWe tried that already:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/v/j9qR8sgd-Nc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="170" height="140
I'm just worried the massive hype is leading to unrealistic expectations. I'll be stunned if this show becomes the type of phenomenon Glee was in its first couple of seasons or even if it develops into a major hit at all. But I think it can get the type of ratings and demographics that are respectable by NBC standards and allow it to stay on the air for a few seasons.
ReplyDeleteYUP!
ReplyDeleteThe point is good reviews do not seem strongly correllated with financial success wrt musicals. If they do, critics are lacking in taste.
She doesn't feel petulant or entitled in the pilot at all, and although the deck seems stacked for her to get the role, it's hard to resent her for it. I really liked her in the tag at the end of that episode of Louie, where you got to see her responding to his direction.
ReplyDeleteI'm firmly in the target audience for this and agree with the consensus that anyone not in NY/LA (maybe Chicago) is going to be a big "who cares" about this. Can't believe they spent so much on marketing. Also: am I the only one who finds not only Hilty all the things that Isaac said above but also worry that McPhee is not going to be a wide draw? She's neither a newcomer or a star (though I know they've been trying to sell her as a newcomer with all that "introducing") stuff. She didn't have a big enough following from AI to launch her as a pop star, and she doesn't have the "who's that girl" factor that a brand new actress (with a hot bod and a booming voice) would. I worry that adds to the "who cares" of it all (despite generally liking McPhee myself).
ReplyDeletePart of the problem is that:
ReplyDelete1. McPhee is a fine singer, but even with the help of autotune, it's abundantly clear that Hilty sings her off the stage. It doesn't seem like a fair fight.
2. Particularly since the role that they're competing for is Marilyn Monroe, there's a problem there. McPhee is very pretty, but Hilty looks like Monroe. If this were a more traditional ingenue part, it'd be more credible. (I expect the problem will be solved by having McPhee play Norma Jean and Hilty play Marilyn along the lines of that messy HBO movie with Ashley Judd and Mira Sorvino, as Linda Holmes suggested on last week's PCHH.)
I'm maintaining cautious optimism about this show. There are a lot of good people in that cast, and I'd probably enjoy a show about the creative process, particularly if there are some good songs thrown in there. That said, the reviews have definitely sounded some notes of caution, plus there is the fact that me liking a show on NBC never seems to equate to good ratings. So: cautious optimism it is.
ReplyDeleteDo y'all really believe that the only people who know or care about musical theater live in NY or LA? I really expected better from this community.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of hooks here for people to give this a try - American Idol fans, musical theater fans (wherever they may be), Debra Messing fans, Glee fans, Marilyn Monroe fans... not to mention that the critics like it pretty well so far, and it's gotten a massive promo push from NBC, so it isn't going to fail because the critics tanked it or because no one knew about it (common causes of NBC failure). I think the first two episodes will do pretty good numbers, and then it just has to stay good enough to hold people. I'm predicting it'll make it through season 1 and get renewed because that's more than most other NBC shows can say.
My Dad (watching a videotape of the pilot of Cop Rock from the night it aired, the next day, while I was at school, to his assistant): Jesus. This is going to be his favorite show.
ReplyDeleteI'm just happy NBC stopped saying "and introducing Kat McPhee." Although if NBC didn't realize there were other networks for the last ten years, it would explain a lot about the blind spots in their programming.
ReplyDeleteNew York musical theater, not just musical theater. There are some people who care about everything everywhere. But is there mass appeal? (I'm more than willing to believe that the majority people in New York and LA don't care about it either.)
ReplyDeleteIf they were to do a situation comedy about community theatre, kind of Waiting of Guffman but less bitter, I'd give it a better chance than this.
Marsha, apologies - you're totally right that there are musical theater lovers throughout the country. However, there are likely fewer musical theater/theater fans in areas other than NYC, LA, Chicago...and fewer people who might sample a show known to be about musical theater in those areas as well. (In other words, I think New Yorkers who don't necessarily follow Broadway might be more likely to tune into the show because they have a familiarity with what Broadway is, whereas someone in middle America who isn't already a Broadway fan might not? Though who knows - with the internet, etc, everything is so global I could be completely incorrect...wouldn't be the first time...)
ReplyDeleteI'd disagree--I found Hilty's character a bit petulant in the pilot, but I think she plays the notes well and has a reason to be petulant. (I'm particularly interested in her past with the two writer characters, which is implied to be significant.)
ReplyDeleteRelatedly, I have a friend who had a small role in Season 1 of Louie ("Girl Who Hits Louie Over the Head") and she said Louie's direction was basically "Harder! I've been a bad man!"
I just can't understand why anyone thinks that the only people who might check out this show are people who are interested in NY musical theater. By that standard, only dorky glee club kids from Ohio would have checked out Glee, only surgeons watch Grey's Anatomy, and only airline crash survivors would have watched Lost. Yes, I know, that once you have people singing and dancing you're automatically going to lose a subset of people, but that's not coextensive with anyone living outside NY. I may not get every NYC theater in-joke, but neither will every New Yorker. And I don't get every insidery local timely reference on Mad Men or Big Love either, and it didn't stop me from loving both shows.
ReplyDeleteRemember how Seinfeld wasn't going to catch on because it was "too New York"? Weren't there Sex and the City watching clubs all over the country? Did non-NY viewers get every H&H or Hamptons Jitney reference? Probably not. Don't think it mattered to them one bit.
I still have the finale of Cop Rock on videotape somewhere. It is made of awesome.
ReplyDeleteI'm not actually thinking it will limit the people who will check it out so much as those who will stick around. I do think there a lot more universality about high school kids doing covers of popular music than adults producing/auditioning for New York plays. I think it's easier to empathize with that. Everybody went to high school and were probably a member of some subculture even if it wasn't that specific one.
ReplyDeleteSex and the City has some kind of fantasy lifestyle aspect to it. Maybe there are more people fantasizing about Broadway than I realize. Or maybe they can relate it to some ambition of their own. I could be wrong.
There is no finale. There is just one big cliffhanger. Like Twin Peaks.
ReplyDeleteThere are large numbers of musical theater fans in DC (judging not only from the ones I know, but from the very large number of musicals put on here, year after year) and I venture a guess that there are in many major cities that have theaters. As well as outside of major cities.
ReplyDeleteYes. I loved Sports Night back when I was firmly anti-sports, and I loved Friday Night Lights even though I am still fairly anti-football. Great stories and acting will make fans no matter the subject.
ReplyDeleteNo - the plot had a cliffhanger, but then they sang about being cancelled! Truly spectacular. I specificlaly remember Barbara Bosson really selling it.
ReplyDeleteThey should just have a show called "Marilyns," with everybody who has ever played Marilyn Monroe all playing Marilyn Monroe. Judd, Sorvino, Michelle Williams, McPhee & Hilty (in character as their characters in character as Monroe), and probably a dozen others. And they would live in a house and their neighbors would be a guy with a thick Hyannisport accent and pastel v-necked cashmere sweaters and a mob-connected singer. And Albert Einstein would come hang around for no reason sometimes. And Madonna would try to steal their inheritance.
ReplyDeleteLike I said above, I don't think the subject matter of a show is as important as its quality. There aren't very many people who love high-school farces as much as I do, but I hate Glee. So to that extent, I agree with Marsha that I don't think the NY musical theater angle is a sticking point.
ReplyDeleteThat said, if this show is all about and only about NY musical theater (as opposed to "human stories set in a NY musical theater world"), I do think that limits its appeal. The difference between doctors and musical theater as subject matter is that the number of TV watchers who just do not like musical theater is much greater than the number of TV watchers who just do not like medicine.
I do lots of musical theatre here in the midwest and while I personally don't give much of a hoot about this show, LOTS of my friends are absolutely salivating for it. So yes- do not underestimate how much theatre people long for more shows about theatre people, no matter where they live. Folks here go to NY all the time just to see shows, and are more up-to-date on who's who than you may realize.
ReplyDeleteIt's a long and strange list: I'd watch: http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027615/
ReplyDeleteNot sure about your last point - there are an awful lot of people who don't like to watch blood and guts in their down time. I have no clue if that number is higher or lower than the number who don't like singing dancing cats. (Hold.) But I completely agree about quality. I get over my dislike of watching blood and guts when the quality is good enough. If Smash is fun to watch, some people who don't otherwise like musical theater will get over it. (See, for example, my husband's hatred of musicals, but willingness to go see Spamalot.)
ReplyDeleteBut I'm nitpicking at your otherwise good point. I think your comment goes a long way to explaining what's currently wrong with Glee. It once was a show with musical numbers that had stories to tell about being an outcast and living your dead dreams through your students. Now it just has musical numbers. And that has, indeed, limited its appeal.
I think we're saying the same thing. It is an interesting question, though irrelevant to this discussion, which genres have to break through greater resistance to reach a mass audience. Surgical gore (Grey's, ER), sports (FNL, Sports Night), musical theater (Glee, Smash), magic and dragons (Game of Thrones), spaceships and aliens (BSG), westerns (Deadwood, arguably Justified, in a way)? For Spacewoman, for example, in order of least to greatest resistance, it went musical theater, surgery, westerns, sports, fantasy, spaceships. Once she gave them a try, quality beat genre resistance in all categories except western (mild lingering disinterest) and spaceships (adamant continued rejection). By contrast, I have no or only token resistance to all of the above genres except musical theater. We'll see.
ReplyDeleteThe difference with me is that if the subject matter is in some way problematic for me (blood, football, westerns, scifi/fantasy, pretentious TV that I'm supposed to love but probably won't because I don't enjoy ponderously slow pretentious TV) then I usually wait a few weeks to see how the reviews are holding up to see if it's worth my time. I caught up with FNL after watching the first season on DVD, didn't watch ER for the first two seasons, will eventually get around to watching BSG, and currently have Luck sitting on my DVR waiting for me to decide whether to watch it. There are things that can get me over the hump and start right away - a particular actor, Joss Whedon, hectoring from this community - but generally, I'll wait to see if it's worth starting in the first place.
ReplyDeleteClearly, for you, Smash is a wait and see (unless Spacewoman makes you watch). For me, no hump, so I'll watch it tonight.
I have little doubt that Smash is going to draw a passionate core audience, particularly since it's completely different from anything on the air in that timeslot (as the success of Revenge has demonstrated, offering something very different from procedurals when the other two nets are offering procedurals can work). The question is how large that audience is and how much it reaches beyond that core audience. Deeply passionate small audience is a recipe for cancellation (or at least massive budget cuts), especially for an expensive show like this one--see also Chuck, FNL, and Fringe.
ReplyDeleteThat may not be true on NBC any more.
ReplyDeleteSmash will definitely be on in my bedroom; the question is whether I will be in my bedroom or 15 feet away getting reacquainted with Plants vs. Zombies (still trying to beat the triple-Gargantuar in Level 21 of Vasebreaker Endless). But Spacewoman was a wait-and-see with all of the above but Glee, Smash, and GoT (to which I dragged her sighing and eye-rolling).
ReplyDeleteThe thing that made my eyes roll?
ReplyDeleteIowa. Of course she's from Iowa. A lovely state that is lazy shorthand for so many things.
I'd watch that show.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I like Christian Borle and Jack Davenport, and they're both perfectly fine, but imagine what John Barrowman could have done with either of the roles (especially Borle's).
ReplyDeleteGod, but I hate lazy shorthand like that. Like portraying Chicagoans as Cubs fans.
ReplyDelete<p><span>I enjoyed it (not from LA or NYC, for the record), and will probably check out a couple of more episodes.</span>
ReplyDelete</p><p><span></span>
</p><p><span>Beyond just NBC's 10pm Monday timeslot carnage, what do you all make of NBC’s inability to launch new shows in general? </span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span>It doesn’t seem like their fare is that much worse than the competition (I can think of several shows that probably would have more viewers if launched on other networks).<span> </span>It seems that aside from football and news, no one wants to watch NBC programming. (Sunday Night Football always wins the night, and NBC was the top network for State of the Union coverage)</span>
</p><p><span><span> </span></span>
</p><p><span>My current theory is that NBC promo monkeys just have no idea how to launch new shows, or promote their current shows.<span> </span>The NBC “Brotherhood of Man” Superbowl video was a good example… it featured characters from many NBC shows, but most were unidentified. If you didn’t know them already, you had no idea what they were.<span> </span><span> </span>And the only NBC shows that were advertised during the Superbowl (a broadcast with the highest US audience in history) were Smash and The Voice, aside from 1 cryptic Awake clip, and 1 promo for the Thursday night comedies which seemed to bury any info about the actual shows.<span> </span>That just seems like a huge wasted opportunity.</span></p>
OH. MY. GOD. YES.
ReplyDeleteEspecially the one that ends with Katherine McPhee doing the dying swan thing but doing it to stand up. AWFUL!
Thinking about Marilyn: The Musical I have two problems:
ReplyDelete1) I don't see an obvious part for Anne Hathaway.
2) Does NPH play Arthur Miller or Joe Dimaggio?
NBC also continues to be the dominant network in morning show (though, admittedly, not as dominant as it once was) and in late night (while Leno has slipped, in part because of worse leadins, he's still in the lead, and SNL regularly is the highest rated program on the entire NBC lineup). Those low-cost programs are what's subsidizing the rest of the network right now, but make it hard to launch primetime.
ReplyDeleteNBC also needs to find a consistent voice--ABC skews female-heavy, CBS skews older, FOX skews young--the historical sweet spot for NBC has been young/affluent, but various efforts they've made steer away from part or all of that (Biggest Loser? Fear Factor? Deal or No Deal? Leno in primetime?).
My theory on why NBC has lost it's audience- What was NBC's identity at it's height? Young, urban, urbane, college-educated, upper-middle-class to wealthy. Exactly the people who have stopped watching primetime Network TV. Exactly the people who are most likely to be watching DVRs, or Netflix, or marathoning shows on DVD, or watching a high-toned drama or edgy comedy on FX or AMC or some other cable network.
ReplyDeletePlus, some of them have aged out of that group, and are watching CBS for their Procedural fix, or ABC for their Doctor/Soapish fix. And they weren't replaced by new young viewers, because they're playing video games, or MMOs, or going out to bars and clubs, because any TV they might be interested in they can catch later or download.
There's a secondary problem - NBC's audience was long considered the most valuable to advertisers - young, so they haven't developed brand loyalty, lots of disposable income, smart consumers. But I think these days those are the people least susceptable to advertising, especially national TV commercials. They don't develop brand loyalty. They don't have a lot of disposable income. Smart Consumer means you're looking for more information to make your buying decisions than is available in a commercial.
I don't know if this is being priced into Ad rates yet, but I think it is affecting programming decisions. Is the Community audience deciding between Budwiser and Miller? No, they're deciding between micro-brews, or perhaps Anchor Steam vs. Sam Adams. But Fear Factor? That's an audience that can be advertised to. I don't want to go full-Ideocracy on this subject, but it's not a trend that supports intelligent, subtle comedys or dramas.
Will Chase (great B'way guy) plays Joe DiMaggio, so that leaves Arthur Miller, JFK, and maybe Einstein (not sure if the Einstein connection was an urban legend).
ReplyDeletePretty sure teh Einstein story was an urban legend.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was a legend -- I think it was just an interesting idea some screenwriter cooked up.
ReplyDeleteI thought they usually use Nebraska for that shorthand. (See, for example Penny on Big Bang Theory.)
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about this last night because I caught a Golden Girls re-run. When Goldern Girls was on, I was teenager. And I watched it - every single week. A show about 4 "old" ladies in Florida. With a lanai, for heaven's sake. I also watched all the other programming on NBC that night - 227, Amen, Empty Nest... these are shows that today would be on BET, Lifetime, or maybe CBS for Empty Nest.
ReplyDeleteThe shows were funny. They were on while I was babysitting. I didn't care that they didn't look exactly like me. this whole idea of people wanting to watch a network rather than a show, or that I'd only watch shows that were specifically made for my demographic is bizarre to me.
Guess that makes me old fashioned, huh?
Oddly enough, I'm already over Smash, and I haven't even watched it yet. This is despite having been all excited for it for months. I think it's 50% over-hyping, and 50% I'm too bothered by the whole "introducing" Katherine McPhee thing bella wilfer pointed out above. Do they think our memories are that short?
ReplyDeleteI believe there is a rotation between Iowa, Kansas, and Nebraska.
ReplyDelete