So I have. Cast your votes via this Doodle link -- vote for as many or as few artists as you wish, and we'll see how the numbers shake out. (Typically, artists require 50%+ support to be nominated and the top 5-7 get in, unless Jann Wenner decides otherwise.)
Defend your reasoning here -- do the Beastie Boys get in because of their whiteness, in spite of it or both? Does the massive popularity of Bon Jovi and Neil Diamond work for them or against them? Is it moral to vote for anyone so long as [Rush/The Replacements/Red Hot Chili Peppers] isn't on the ballot? Cast your vote(s), and rock on.
Adam, you seem to have omitted Neil Diamond from the Doodle poll. FWIW, I would have voted for him.
ReplyDeleteOops. Fixed. Try again.
ReplyDeleteAnd I had to delete the existing (3) voters. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteI actually think of the whole list, only Neil Diamond makes a great deal of a sense. Part of this may be my resistance to rap/hip-hop acts as Rock HOF entries. I mean, Sachin Tendulkar may be a great freaking hitter, but he plays cricket.<span></span>
ReplyDeleteHence the revised title above. But I think that once that definitional question has been resolved (Grandmaster Flash and Run-DMC are in, as well as friggin' ABBA), voters are obliged to consider artists in those genres along the same parameters and metrics as guitar-based rock. It'd be like a Baseball HOF voter refusing to induct relief pitchers or designated hitters.
ReplyDeleteTo me, Beasties, LL, PE, NWA (plus Dre as a separate solo inductee), Eminem, Jay-Z, Tupic and Biggie all get in.
This raises an interesting question. Do we vote on the Hall as we would envision it? (Were I in charge it would be a much smaller Hall). Or do we accept the parameters as based on who'se in and vote based on those?
ReplyDeleteThere are two different ways of looking at this (at a minimum) -- one based on "genres I wouldn't have included," and the other is the "if an artist this sucky got in, do I have to vote for everyone who sucked less?" question. My attitude is that the genres are set, but that folks can vote SmallHall if they want.
ReplyDeleteI think Beasties get in whether or not you think rap belongs in the HOF. Their rap-qua-rap period peaked with the brilliant Paul's Boutique, only their second album. By the time they got to Check Your Head, they had more in common with mainstream rock (or at least college radio) than mainstream rap.
ReplyDeleteWhere's the love for Laura Nyro?
ReplyDeletePaul's Boutique, along with 3 Feet High and Rising and Nation of Millions/Fear of a Black Planet were on the cusp of bringing a new kind of audio collage to popular music, before it was drailed by the lawsuits against De La Soul and Biz Markee, making the art form too expensive for commercial music. That's what puts the Beastie Boys over the top for me.
ReplyDeleteThe Beastie Boys are 100% Hall of Famers. Their work with The Dust Brothers on "Paul's Boutique" popularized sampling which revolutionized hip-hop. It's one of the four or five most influential hip-hip/rap albums of all time.
ReplyDeleteOff the top of my head:
1.) "Straight Outta Compton" - N.W.A
N.W.A made an album that forever changed the direction of rap. To simplify, before "Compton" hip-hop and rap were more arty and jokey. "Straight Outta Compton" essentially created Gangsta Rap, one of the dominant art forms of the '90s and early '00s. If someone ever tries to say that rap/hip-hop doesn't belong in the Rock HOF, this is the album I'd play to prove them wrong. Almost every rapper working today owes a debt of gratitude to N.W.A for blazing the trail.
2.) "Raising Hell" - Run–D.M.C.
It's not the best album on the list, but it was hip-hop's first crossover hit. The album went triple-platinum and scored with white audiences, largely because the album's sound drifted towards rock but the Aerosmith cover didn't hurt. Run-D.M.C. was also one of the first black artists to get regular airtime on MTV, an immeasurable step towards the widespread adoption of the artform.
3.) "The Message" - Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
Brought the late '70s New York underground sound to the public, effectively creating hip-hop as a genre. Also, one of their members is apocryphally credited with inventing the phrase "hip-hop".
4.) "Paul's Boutique" - Beastie Boys
Like I said above: it popularized sampling, one of the most important (and polarizing) aspects of hip-hop.
5.) "People's Instinctive Travels and the Paths of Rhythm" - A Tribe Called Quest
Really sort of a throwback to the early days of socially conscious, more artistically intricate hip hop, Tribe basically created the alternative hip-hop/art-hop genre.
"<span>Is it moral to vote for anyone so long as Rush...isn't on the ballot?</span>
ReplyDeleteRush has been eligible since 1999. Inducted the year before? Fleetwood Mac. I rest my case, and no one should be voted for this year.
(Really, what does Jann Wenner have against Rush? Did Geddy Lee kick his puppy?)
I *wish* the ATCQ albums had been more influential, but let's be honest: The Chronic has to displace it from this list, as well as the first Wu-Tang album. And even within that genre, 3 Feet High and Rising comes before ATCQ, right?
ReplyDelete[Cue Isaac on the propriety of white nerds reifying a hip hop hierarchy.]
If anyone has to go in (see my post below) she's on my gimme list.
ReplyDeleteAn interesting question as we move forward to an eligbility era when country was big as popular music--how do we deal with someone like a Garth Brooks--7 number 1 albums, every album he's ever released is platinum, but only top 10 Hot 100 single, massive concert artist, at least one Rolling Stone cover, and unquestionably the most popular artist in America from about 1990-1994?
ReplyDeleteTotally agree (though there's no question in my mind that the sampling practices of the era violated copyright law). I was just saying that the Beasties should be in whether or not you think rap should be in.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm a hypocrite and did vote in the poll. Beastie Boys, Alice Cooper, Laura Nyro and Tom Waits (not sure where it came from, but I vacillated on LL Cool J).
ReplyDeleteNo, De La and Tribe Called Quest and, to a certain extent, Run-DMC aren't the same thing. They were pop music when rap could be pop music -- music aimed at the population at large without subscribing to a particular cultural mythology. De La and Tribe (and Digable Planets, and Arrested Development, and Digital Underground, etc.) were basically college music. I was talking about trying to make judgments about hip hop after NWA, when it adopted first the gangster mythology and then the gangster-turned-mogul mythology. You or I or anybody is perfectly well-suited to write about De La or the Beasties.
ReplyDeleteBut as an example of how ill-suited we are to split hairs about Jay Z or Eminem, I can't write either "gangster" or "gangsta" without it looking ridiculous. I suddenly turn into Phil Dunphy. I cannot not look stupid using the word "gangsta." I cannot not look stupid using the word "gangster" when I know that it's supposed to be "gangsta." Imagine yourself using that word non-jokingly in a conversation with Ice Cube. How can a person write or talk about post-NWA rap without referring to that concept? Or even just talking about beats. I think Jay Z is better than Em because he uses fatter beats. Does that sound ridiculous? Sounds ridiculous to me. And it's a reasonable position. I'm not saying your opinion about post-NWA rap or anybody else's is invalid. It just will never not sound funny when two rich white nerds have that debate.
I guess, to me "The Chronic" was as influential as it was perfection. I don't think it went anywhere new, but it aced what it set out to do.
ReplyDeleteWu-Tang, well... I can see it. Maybe that's 3 or 4th on your list, and 6th on mine.
I know it sounds goofy, but don't forget: I'm 21. To Benoit this shit, I'm of the generation that always had rap on MTV. I grew up during the weirdly assonant era of Grunge AND Gangsta Rap. Emineim and Jay-Z have been the defining musical stars of my generation; think about it, which rock groups come close.
ReplyDeleteYes it sounds funny, but it doesn't sound WRONG.
I believe you mean "to Beloit." To Benoit something means to load it up with steroids and chronic brain trauma and have it murder its family members before killing itself -- essentially, the mess that Sorkin put TWW into at the end of season four when he was leaving.
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely correct. I got mixed up because I'm about to Benoit one of my roommates who hasn't paid rent in two months.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that to "McMahon" someone?
ReplyDeleteLook, for whatever grievances Rush fans may have, Fleetwood Mac is unquestionably a deserving inductee off longevity and record sales--"Rumours" remains the 10th highest selling album of all time.
ReplyDeleteAnother interesting one from looking at the big sales numbers? Guns N Roses is eligible next year. Is Appetite for Destruction and the Illusion albums enough to get them in?
I'd say no; maybe if they had one more great album. And I think Fleetwood Mac needs some good albums before they get over my distaste. Popularity is one thing, but quality is another. (Seriously, Stevie Nicks is in the Hall. This blows my mind almost as much as Mark McGwire getting 128 votes this year.)
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting. Particularly in the case of Garth who covered rock music live in concert and on the occasional album which brought country music much closer to popular music even to this day. For good or ill. His would be an interesting keltner.
ReplyDeleteI watched the Rush documentary this summer, and if I learned one thing, it's that they're nice Canadian boys who would not kick puppies. (I learned a whole lot more than that. Hee.)
ReplyDeleteThis poll is inconclusive re: ladies and their love for Cool J.
ReplyDeleteI thought "to McMahon" meant to run for Senate in the state of Connecticut.
ReplyDeleteStevie Nicks has written some AMAZING songs. Take a look at her "written by" credits and tell me she's not a Hall of Famer.
ReplyDeleteIs it bad that I only voted for two (while listening to a third)? If so, for whom is it bad?
ReplyDeleteJust wondering (perhaps becasue they were my favorite band in middle school and high school): Why is Hall & Oates rarely even mentioned as a contender? They certainly were popular enough for a long enough period of time to merit consideration. And while they weren't necessarily critical darlings in their heyday, it seems as though they've been sampled enough in the last decade to warrant a look.
ReplyDeleteNo no, "to McMahon" means to win the Super Bowl in your one excellent season.
ReplyDeleteInteresting question; I'd not put them in at first glance, but they're close enough to the line to warrant a discussion.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to do the Keltner on the Jewish Elvis, but I think someone can do Hall and Oates.
ReplyDeleteI was only the third vote for Chic. that is really sad.
ReplyDeleteI thought "to Benoit" meant to get a tattoo reading "Bowie" on your bicep because somebody thought you looked like Sam Bowie, which probably wasn't meant as a compliment but you didn't know that, because you were really dumb and also not that good at basketball.
ReplyDeleteEh, google it.
I stand by my original point, though. Maybe a more succinct way to put it would be to say that when we talk about indie/alternative/mainstream rock music, we live there. When we talk about post-NWA rap, we're tourists.
Stevie Nicks is the greatest modern rapper to have never been assassinated.
ReplyDeleteWell, don't freak out.
ReplyDeleteI thought about voting for Chic just because I've heard so much about how influential they were, but when I look back on the disco era, I think of Donna Summer much more often. And as memorable as Good Times and Le Freak were, I always preferred Last Dance.
ReplyDeleteGnR probably isn't a first ballot HOF inductee, but seriously worthy. Appetite for Destruction was the high point of its genre. And even though Use Your Illusion I/II never equalled Appetite, that the interminable wait for Chinese Democracy never simply faded into obscurity shows GnR's potential for HOF status.
ReplyDelete